Using click tracks: pro's and con's?

[VTmosaic]

What are the pro's and con's of using click tracks in folks' experience? We have several songs that have tempo changes and have been doing click tracks programmed with those changes. Are we just being silly and wasting our time for little or no return?

I do find that I like having the audio lined up with the measures and beats, and that the phrasing is tighter between the instruments and vocals if we're all hearing a nice tight click track while doing our takes. It also allows us to lay tracks in any order; we don't have to wait for the drums to be be recorded before we can start takes, for instance, as long as we have one guitar scratch track (recorded against the click track).

Would other folks care to share how they approach this issue? I'd appreciate any (reasonable and on-topic) thoughts. Thanks.

[Bulls Hit]

I say practice with one, record without one.

But what do I know, my timing sucks

[bennychico11]

some musicians hate them. i know i do. i concentrate too much on staying in tempo that i lose the musicality of what i'm doing. if it's a non-drummer, i'd say throw up a looped drum track. more pleasing to the ear than CLICKS or BEEPS.

[grn]

for drummer I suggest always using one... after drums are recorded you can use those as your "click" track... I always record drums first before anything else anyhow.

[Tekker]

Yes, I always record to a click. I think it makes editing so much easier because you have a steady click to line everything up to. Even the drummer can speed up and slow down (while playing to a click) and lining everything up with the drums isn't as steady as lining up with the click IMO.

I've recorded for a few people who couldn't play to a metronome, so in those cases I would record a scratch "bongo" track (micing the bongos with my talk-back mic) along with the click and that would usually give them enough to get a feel for the beat. For the band that I'm still currently recording for, one of their guitarists had a hard time getting the correct rhythm to one particular song, so I played the song along with him on my acoustic and that was enough to keep him in time with the click. So sometimes all they need is a little help and encouragement to get them going.

-tkr

[Tekker]

Originally Posted by bennychico11

some musicians hate them. i know i do. i concentrate too much on staying in tempo that i lose the musicality of what i'm doing.

Playing with a metronome may be tough at first, but if you continually work with one, it will get easier. Once you get used to it, you can stop paying attention to it and just play (in time too ).

if it's a non-drummer, i'd say throw up a looped drum track. more pleasing to the ear than CLICKS or BEEPS.

That's definitely true!

There's a mentronome program called Y-Metronome that uses MIDI soundfonts, so you can assign drum sounds instead of a click. Then if you want a more normal metronome sound, you can use a cowbell, a conga, a rim-shot, or something similiar...

-tkr

[bennychico11]

Originally Posted by Tekker

There's a mentronome program called Y-Metronome that uses MIDI soundfonts, so you can assign drum sounds instead of a click. Then if you want a more normal metronome sound, you can use a cowbell, a conga, a rim-shot, or something similiar...

Oh I know that....i'm just saying use a real drum set looped to 4 bars in your style. Or get a drum machine and create a quick beat that you like and can play along with. Sometimes I feel like I can get much more into a groove of an actual drum set playing the beat than a cowbell or annoying beep (maybe it just brings back horrible memories of elementary school or something )

[Cloneboy Studio]

Using a click track:

PROS

Assuming drummer lock on--assures steady tempo

Steady tempos mean you can easily align MIDI sequences to the track

Steady tempos mean cutting, pasting and looping parts is accurate and possible

Digital editing becomes simple--cut and paste verses, choruses, re-arrange the song easily

Less likely to hear fellow AE's over the Internet complain that the band changed tempos mid-song or sped up parts or whatever

CONS

99% of drummers hate playing to click tracks--only seasoned pro's do

Music can loose groove and feel

Some drummers can't play to a steady beat... mystifies me to no end why not

Risk loss of energy from the band's performances

Requires a little bit more planning and setup to get the click ready

Temptation to use sequenced synths to excess

Temptation to ruthlessly edit, cut and paste can waste a lot of time as the band and AE search for "perfection"

Allows musicians to become lazy: "alright record the riff... okay let me silence out the parts and otherwise edit it to death so it sounds perfect and then we'll loop it throughout the song" and the famous "okay record the chorus and double it and I'll cut in paste it every place there is a chorus." It can be even more ludicrous with drumming.

PERSONAL OPINION

Myself I dislike clicks. It can really iron out the feel and groove of music. Most of the classic rock songs aren't tempo perfect, but nobody cares because the performances and songs are so great. Heck, most people don't *notice* the tempo changes.

I do like drummers that can stay pretty close to being consistent with their tempo--enough that the music breathes, but not so loose that they are changing the tempo every verse and chorus, or gradually speeding up songs as they progress.

I've used clicks before and felt it added a frustration level for the band that wasn't conducive to accomplishing the recording. I've programmed songs into sequencers and had the drummer listen to it and 'double' it... time consuming but drummers are more likely to want to do this than to listen to a click track.

For rock bands the cardinal rule should always be **RECORD YOUR PERCUSSION FIRST**. I've heard of people trying to somehow align the drums up to guitar tracks later on and wondered why put yourself through that torture? (FYI: "Something in the Way" by Nirvana was recorded in that fashion because they happened to get a 'magical' performance by Cobain in the control room and Dave later had a hell of a time getting the percussion in there due to tempo variations in the playing. Adding the cello later on was a bitch too!)

In summary--clicks, a useful tool when applied properly and for the benefit of the music. Not so smart to use unless you have plenty of time or the band are total perfectionists and don't mind sounding like a drum machine. I'm not knocking drum machines though--my Roland R8 never gets drunk, never misses practice and never misses a beat unless I program it wrong. More than I can say for any drummer.

[guhlenn]

clicks are great! don't believe the " lose the feel " or "the classics didn't use clicks " hype... those people just don't care to practice enough with clicks or just have lousy timing in general!

*flame suit ON*

but really, We record everything with click and then let the drummer play wihtout. Why? Right, cuz with clicks it takes to much time cuz he keeps making errors LOL. (he tells me that "he loses the feeling" though )

[HangDawg]

If you can't play to a click track, you suck!

There I said it.


I just finished the drum tracking on 9 songs and the drummer played to a click. It was more than just a cowbell though. It was a bunch of different sounds all playing different parts (whole, half, quarter notes ...etc) The drummer really liked it and the songs are very tight. I know there are different takes on this but I feel it is required.

[Hard2Hear]

Originally Posted by HangDawg

If you can't play to a click track, you suck!

+1

Yep, he's right folks.

H2H

[CGibson]

I have two drummers I use for session work in my studio.
Why only two?

1. They can adapt to any style.
Big band, country, heavy metal, blues, jazz etc.
2. They both can lock to a metronome because they work
at it. And they know the difference between on and off.

I have two session players that cover the guitar, bass, mandolin, fiddle etc.
Why only two?
See answers 1 and 2 above

You can know every chord, lick, drum fill, double bass and funko slap in the world. If you can't play to a metronome....well maybe you should learn.

Stop making excuses
Learn to play in time and chicks will dig you more!

C

[mshilarious]

You should be able to play to a click, but after that why bother? Music needs to breathe. I never heard of a classical recording to a click track. You've got the conductor's hand, and that's about it.

Having said that, I don't think you can start with drums only, no click. That drummer needs some other instruments to maintain focus.

Finally, I think dynamics suffer with a click because the click is not dynamic. But I can't prove that, so take it for what it's worth.

[lanterns]

"click is not dynamic"? well, the sound isn't. That isn't to say that the music won't be. Playing to click is more advantageous than not in ways that have already be explained here.
BUT
It also depends on what you're going for. If you're going all analog and you're a rock or punk band, you shouldn't use a click, you should go LIVE!!!

[mshilarious]

Originally Posted by lanterns

"click is not dynamic"? well, the sound isn't. That isn't to say that the music won't be.

Well it'd be tough to set up a controlled experiment, but I bet that the random average musician would be less dynamic playing to a click.

What the hell, compress it to death either way!

[Farview]

The secret to playing to a click is to envision the click as another instrument. Like a guy playing a cowbell (no jokes) in Santana or Miami Sound Machine. You have to play off of it, groove to it, make it part of the song and then remove it before anyone puts more parts down.

The click doesn't hinder my performance, it adds to it. It frees me up not having to concentrate on staying steady. It is also good for breaks in the song, so I don't have to figure out how to remove the hi hat count for the guitar only break in the middle of the song.

I have found that most people that can't play to a click have not really broken down what they are playing enough to know how it relates to the beat. Without doing that, you will never be a great drummer and will always be unsteady.

It takes practice but once you learn how to do it right, you will feel like an idiot for not doing it sooner. Your playing will improve ten-fold as well.

[CGibson]

Originally Posted by Farview

The secret to playing to a click is to envision the click as another instrument. Like a guy playing a cowbell (no jokes) in Santana or Miami Sound Machine. You have to play off of it, groove to it, make it part of the song and then remove it before anyone puts more parts down.

The click doesn't hinder my performance, it adds to it. It frees me up not having to concentrate on staying steady. It is also good for breaks in the song, so I don't have to figure out how to remove the hi hat count for the guitar only break in the middle of the song.

I have found that most people that can't play to a click have not really broken down what they are playing enough to know how it relates to the beat. Without doing that, you will never be a great drummer and will always be unsteady.

It takes practice but once you learn how to do it right, you will feel like an idiot for not doing it sooner. Your playing will improve ten-fold as well.

What He Said!

C

[lanterns]

[QUOTE=mshilarious]Well it'd be tough to set up a controlled experiment, but I bet that the random average musician would be less dynamic playing to a click.QUOTE]
dynamics is a broad subject. I think you mean the avg musician would be less technically proficient at his instrument b/c he/she's concentrating on the click. If that's what you mean, yeah, you're right.
but
it's all in what you're going for. if your avg musician is concentrating on being a virtuoso, he/she should still learn to play to a click, if only for the virtue of the music.

[randyfromde]

Put me down for the "play with a click" group. Music that is constantly pushing and pulling against the beat isn't "feel", unless it is purely intentional.

[volltreffer]

Our band always does strange things when recording: I record to a scratch drum machine track some guitar, bass and vocal tracks (often intended as scratch, but kept in the end). Then the drummer records the drums over it (of course with a click/stick/cowbell track). Much easier for her to get the feeling of the song and stay dynamic. As everything is midi-synced (NEED that for edit), its no problem to get the click track out of a synced sequencer...

aXel

[mshilarious]

Originally Posted by lanterns

dynamics is a broad subject. I think you mean the avg musician would be less technically proficient at his instrument b/c he/she's concentrating on the click. If that's what you mean, yeah, you're right.
but it's all in what you're going for.

Not less technically proficient. It's more of the concept of the click as an instrument. If you're jamming with a musician who is static, then you will be more static yourself. You have to be, or it sounds really odd. Never mind that the click gets dumped, you can hear it when you cut your track, so it affects you.

Lemme state it another way: a click is saying that a musician cannot adequately control their tempo with reason (say +-2%). That, in my book, is a bad musician. One learns control via a metronome, but then should be able to proceed without one.

Isn't the same thing true of dynamics? Why not use a 'swell' track to make sure the musicians get the dynamics right?

I like to use a click in, say for 4 measures or so. After that, it's up to me not to suck.

[Farview]

Originally Posted by mshilarious

Well it'd be tough to set up a controlled experiment, but I bet that the random average musician would be less dynamic playing to a click.

I have never wanted to be a 'random average musician'.

[randyfromde]

Why not use a 'swell' track to make sure the musicians get the dynamics right?

Isn't that what is done during "mixing"? I know I've seen a RE turn a volume knob once or twice during the mixing process

[jonhall5446]

A Cowbell makes a good click, insert silly SNL joke here, Especially for a hard rock band or something that doesn't get a lot of cowbell usage.

[Farview]

Originally Posted by mshilarious

Not less technically proficient. It's more of the concept of the click as an instrument. If you're jamming with a musician who is static, then you will be more static yourself. You have to be, or it sounds really odd.

You obviously don't understand how a groove is created. The click is something that you ebb and flow against to create the feel. The object is not to be 100% on top of the click all the time. Just like your kick drum and bass guitar are not exactly on top of each other when you play.

What you have to do is figure out what it is that you are doing when your playing sounds great, and then do that around the click.

I agree, a lot of random average musicians will play more ridgidly (most would just not be able to) when playing to a click. But that is what separates the men from the boys. If you became a musician because it looked easier than going to college and getting a real job, you are sadly mistaken. If you became a drummer because it looked easier than playing guitar, you are a walking stereotype.

There will come a time when you will be asked to step up and play with the big boys. Are you ready? Sadly, most are not. Most professional musicians are far better a what they do than they get credit for. Even the guys that we all think suck (pick a seemingly undeserving famous band or member) a lot of times are told to play that way by a producer that likes to underestimate what people will accept as music. That same producer, by the way, will insist that everything be done to a click. Just because no one does guitar solos any more doesn't mean the guitarists are not capable, it just means that they have the maturity to know that it is inappropriate at that time.

In order to get anywhere, you need to know what you are doing.