Too many mics, which one's for me?

[Lucaso]

I'm getting into recording at home for the first time and don't really know what kind of vocal and instrument mics I need?

I bought an all-in-one which came with a free APEX 430 mic. After looking on E-bay at the different Neumans going for upwards of $5000 I started thinking that the apex might be an el-cheapo? Is this a sufficient mic for vocals?

I need however a mic for acoustic instruments. Any suggestions for something of good quality but not something I have to sacrifice my first-born for?

Thanks

[acorec]

Originally Posted by Lucaso

I'm getting into recording at home for the first time and don't really know what kind of vocal and instrument mics I need?

I bought an all-in-one which came with a free APEX 430 mic. After looking on E-bay at the different Neumans going for upwards of $5000 I started thinking that the apex might be an el-cheapo? Is this a sufficient mic for vocals?

I need however a mic for acoustic instruments. Any suggestions for something of good quality but not something I have to sacrifice my first-born for?

Thanks

Forget the name Neumann. Put it out of your mind. Relax.

There are many mics out there for a reasonable price that will get you great recordings. High-end mics are for pros who make a living off of or rich serious homereccers. You can look at a number of good mics like Studio Projects, Audio Technica, Shure, Oktava for starters. For acoustic instruments you may try Oktava MC012 SDC condensors. They sound really good at less than $100. Go to a store and try some mics through a recording chain close to yours and see the differences for yourself. You have to try them out as no one can tell you what is the right mic for you.

[GABritton]

Is this going to be for recording, or live? How much can you part for a mic and/or preamp?

[Lucaso]

Well I've got a KorgMK1600II. Is it necessary to buy a separate preamp unit type thing for the inputs. I think the recorder has the inputs already built in.

I'll only be recording at home and not in a "live band" setting but one to two tracks at a time.

[DJL]

Originally Posted by Lucaso

I'm getting into recording at home for the first time and don't really know what kind of vocal and instrument mics I need?

I bought an all-in-one which came with a free APEX 430 mic. After looking on E-bay at the different Neumans going for upwards of $5000 I started thinking that the apex might be an el-cheapo? Is this a sufficient mic for vocals?

I need however a mic for acoustic instruments. Any suggestions for something of good quality but not something I have to sacrifice my first-born for?

Thanks

About how much do you want to spend... do you want good top name brand mics or cheap Chinese made budget mics?

[DJL]

Originally Posted by Lucaso

Well I've got a KorgMK1600II. Is it necessary to buy a separate preamp unit type thing for the inputs. I think the recorder has the inputs already built in.

I'll only be recording at home and not in a "live band" setting but one to two tracks at a time.

Most condenser type mics require phantom power to work... so, if your recorder doesn't have phantom power you'll need a phantom power supply or a mixer or preamp that has phantom power if you can bypass the built-in preamps in your KorgMK1600II.

[Big Kenny]

You can only bypass the preamps by going in digitally, creates another scenario for you involving ad converters. While the Korgs pre amps aren't the best (I don't use 'em now but I idid for a while) I have heard some excellent stuff from them For now, get yourself a nice lcd (if you want vocals() or a couple sdc's( for acoustic guitars or overheads) You can kinda get by the pres(not really but kinda) by getting a pre amp (search) and keeping your Korg input flat. Korg has a great support BB @http://www.korgstudios.com/forum/forum.asp?FORUM_ID=7
These guys will walk you through anything and not make you feel like an idiot. Really great help!!!
P.S. you have phantom power, each of the four XLR's has a switch next to the input for phantom

[Cloneboy Studio]

I agree that home recordists should just forget about ANY mic that costs over 1000 bucks. You DON'T need a Neumann U47 or U87... heck, you probably lack the gear that can remotely capture half of the sound of that mic. Total waste of money.

Truth is probably 90% of pro recording are done on mics with a list price under 1000 bucks. Consider these classic microphones (all under 1000 bucks, heck most under 500):

AKG C451
AKG D112
AKG 414 BULS
Shure SM7
Shure SM81
ElectroVoice RE20
Sennheiser MD421
Rode NT1
Shure SM57
Shure SM58
Audio Technica 4050

Honestly, if you had just one or two of each the above mics you'd have an EXCELLENT setup. There really isn't anything you couldn't record well.

You don't need that 10,000 dollar Manley tube microphone. Probably next to nobody uses it except people like Whitney Houston (who doesn't do jack anymore) and so on.

Plus, there are a lot of around 200 dollar microphones that are just amazing these days. How about an older Austrian made Rode NT1? I used a Studio Projects B1 the other day and it blew away (!!!!) more expensive microphones like an SM7, AT4050, and RE20.

Studio Projects C1 is a very impressive mic at 200 bucks. So is the Rode NT1--an 80's standard condensor. AKG C2000's are great mics and they are only 200 bucks. AKG C1000's are great small diaphragm condensors and aren't expensive either.

For about 1200-1500 bucks, and carefully shopping used gear, you can assemble a nice mic set without resorting to a Neumann or Royer ribbon mics. Those *are* nice mics but if you don't have the room and gear to exploit them they are a waste of cash.

[BJW]

I'm with cloneboy.

[DJL]

Originally Posted by BJW

I'm with cloneboy.

Yeah, me too... except for the B1 crap, that was a good post IMO... on the other hand, there are people with some pretty nice home recording studio's that reap the joys of the better mics.

[cominginsecond]

You didn't say your budget, but I'll assume $1000, and I'll assume you aren't recording drums.

For that, I'd get Shure KSM44 and a pair of Oktava MC012s.

If you're recording drums, the situation becomes much more complicated.

[mshilarious]

It also depends greatly on the type of music. Could you be more specific?

If it's vocal + guitar, then I agree with cominginsecond. But if it's lots of different acoustic instruments to be mixed on the same track, well then the stereo pair becomes less important, so I'd consider an MD421 instead.

[chessrock]

Originally Posted by Cloneboy Studio

Truth is probably 90% of pro recording are done on mics with a list price under 1000 bucks. . . . You don't need that 10,000 dollar Manley tube microphone. Probably next to nobody uses it except people like Whitney Houston (who doesn't do jack anymore) and so on.

You're right on with that. Rock on. Great post.

I used a Studio Projects B1 the other day and it blew away (!!!!) more expensive microphones like an SM7, AT4050, and RE20.

But you lost me on this one.

[Han]

Originally Posted by Cloneboy Studio

I agree that home recordists should just forget about ANY mic that costs over 1000 bucks. You DON'T need a Neumann U47 or U87... heck, you probably lack the gear that can remotely capture half of the sound of that mic. Total waste of money.

Truth is probably 90% of pro recording are done on mics with a list price under 1000 bucks. Consider these classic microphones (all under 1000 bucks, heck most under 500):

AKG C451
AKG D112
AKG 414 BULS
Shure SM7
Shure SM81
ElectroVoice RE20
Sennheiser MD421
Rode NT1
Shure SM57
Shure SM58
Audio Technica 4050

Honestly, if you had just one or two of each the above mics you'd have an EXCELLENT setup. There really isn't anything you couldn't record well.

You don't need that 10,000 dollar Manley tube microphone. Probably next to nobody uses it except people like Whitney Houston (who doesn't do jack anymore) and so on.

Plus, there are a lot of around 200 dollar microphones that are just amazing these days. How about an older Austrian made Rode NT1? I used a Studio Projects B1 the other day and it blew away (!!!!) more expensive microphones like an SM7, AT4050, and RE20.

Studio Projects C1 is a very impressive mic at 200 bucks. So is the Rode NT1--an 80's standard condensor. AKG C2000's are great mics and they are only 200 bucks. AKG C1000's are great small diaphragm condensors and aren't expensive either.

For about 1200-1500 bucks, and carefully shopping used gear, you can assemble a nice mic set without resorting to a Neumann or Royer ribbon mics. Those *are* nice mics but if you don't have the room and gear to exploit them they are a waste of cash.

Have you ever recorded a great saxophone player with a Neumann U47 or M49? Or a great sounding trumpet with a nice ribbon mic?
Compare that with a C1 or even worse a C1000.

Yes, hi end mics are very expensive, but I would never call them a waste of money.

Try to record a great sounding grand piano with a pair of MD421's (or C1000's), do you still think this is an exellent setup? A pair of Schoeps or DPA mics will sound 100 times better in this application.

It's all very subjective, but I'm afraid I disagree. A hi end mic will sound better on even a cassette recorder.

[teainthesahara]

Originally Posted by Lucaso

I bought an all-in-one which came with a free APEX 430 mic.

I need however a mic for acoustic instruments. Any suggestions for something of good quality but not something I have to sacrifice my first-born for?

Thanks

Lucaso, that 430 is fine, especially if your just getting started. I've used the 430 for a few years, and you can do quality recordings on it. My buddies band recorded their demo with a couple 430's and sm57's. Check out the clip 'junction creek'. The 430 is used exclusively on vocals, guitars, and drum overheads.

http://www.nowhereradio.com/teainthesahara/singles

Oh yeah, if you unscrew the bottom cap of the 430, and take the body off, there is a little roll off switch. The mic comes with that feature, but they neglect to tell you about it in the instructions/ad's!

T

[Richard Monroe]

I guess I'm in the middle. I think a project studio is built of cheap things that work, mid priced stuff that works better, and a few things that really are top of the line. You can only have so many of those. Here are my price point all-stars:

Dynamics:

< $100- Shure SM57, Sennheiser e835, AKG D770, AT Pro25 (close enough)
< $500- Shure SM7B, Sennheiser MD421/ e609, AKG D112, Audix D6
> $500- Sennheiser MD441, Electrovoice RE20

Small Diaphragm Condensers:

< $100- Behringer ECM8000, MXL603, Oktava MC012
< $200- Studio Projects C-4, Rode NT-5
< $500- AKG C451, Josephson C42
> $500- Earthworks SR77, Schoeps CM6

Large Diaphragm Condensers:

< $100- Studio Projects B-1, MXL V67, Oktava MK319
< $200- CAD M179, AKG C2000B (actually an SD), Rode NT1
< $500- B.L.U.E. Baby Bottle, Studio Projects C-1/C-3, Shure KSM32, AT4033/4040 (4033 is also an SD)
< $1000- Shure KSM44, B.L.U.E. Dragonfly, AKG C414 (any version),Soundelux U195
> $1000- Soundelux U99/ ifet7, B.L.U.E. Kiwi, Neumann U87

Tube mics:

< $500- Rode NTK, Studio Projects T3
< $1000- AT 4060
> $1000- Soundelux U99, Lawson L47 MKII, Brauner Valvet


While there are many more excellent mics in every price range, it is my contention that every mic listed above will be found to be good *for something*, and will be worth the price paid for it in the long run.-Richie

[Warhead]

Originally Posted by chessrock

You're right on with that. Rock on. Great post.



But you lost me on this one.

Damn Chess, can't you just believe??

We all know the RE20 is JUNK bro.

War

[Cloneboy Studio]

Originally Posted by Han

Have you ever recorded a great saxophone player with a Neumann U47 or M49? Or a great sounding trumpet with a nice ribbon mic?
Compare that with a C1 or even worse a C1000.

Yes but for someone just getting started it is more important to get the basics covered rather than blow 2 grand on a single mic that captures great saxophone. What this guy was wondering is if your mic doesn't cost 2000 bucks that it's garbage--and that just isn't true.

Try, oh please just TRY to refute my claim that the majority of albums *AREN'T* recorded with my sub-1000 bucks mic list. Just try... and fail.

I mean, how often do you *realistically* record sax? Myself? Never. Of course I focus on indie/emo/punk bands and haven't found any ska bands using horns yet.

Originally Posted by Han

Yes, hi end mics are very expensive, but I would never call them a waste of money.

Not if you have the peripheral equipment that compliments it; i.e. mixer, preamp, etc...

Plus--which is a better setup: a pair of Neumann U87's or 10-12 lesser mics? I FRIGGING GUARANTEE YOU that trying to record a drum kit with only 2 Neumann's would sound stupid as hell. A couple of SM57's, a C451, a D112 and 2 AKG 414's would sound radically better.

I'd love to see the look on the face of your clients when you try to explain that their drum sounds will be great with these two expensive mics hanging over the kit, versus the 8-12 mics they are used to. Most of my clients would walk right out the door! And you know what--they'd be right because you're not going to get a modern drum sound with only 2 U87's.

Originally Posted by Han

Try to record a great sounding grand piano with a pair of MD421's (or C1000's), do you still think this is an exellent setup? A pair of Schoeps or DPA mics will sound 100 times better in this application.

Honestly for the above microphone setup I'd consider either the C451's or AKG 414's for the piano. Not perfect but it will be okay.

Originally Posted by Han

It's all very subjective, but I'm afraid I disagree. A hi end mic will sound better on even a cassette recorder.

It sure might (depends on the singer--I've heard people sound crap on a U87 but great on a SM57, there is no one 'perfect' mic for all applications). But 2000 dollars better? Better for a beginner with a Behringer mixer, a Presonus Blue Tube preamp and a Fostex VF16 recorder? I don't think so.

[Cloneboy Studio]

Originally Posted by chessrock

But you lost me on this one.

Seriously, we A/B'd mics on this singer and the ones that were really good were the NT1, the RE20 and the B1. The NT1 had great clarity and some nice upper harmonics on it, the RE20 was super rich and warm, and the B1 was someplace between them.

The singer and I felt that for a majority of the takes we'd utilize the B1. I was ASTOUNDED. I'm not saying that it would whip a U87, but for that particular singer and the mics we auditioned it had good clarity, ample warmth, and enough air to make it still 'rock'.

This particular singer has a strong, but finely detailed voice that generally sounds nasty on most dynamic mics, so I knew that we'd probably end up with a condensor on him. We tried him on my staple vocal mike, SM7, and he sounded thin and brittle... it was *terrible*. All the other mics were applicable, but the B1 gave us some good detail and character that fit his band's overdriven, indie rock style.

[Cloneboy Studio]

Oh, just for the record... the RE20 is one of my all time favorite mics. Lately I've been recording electric guitar with it. Gives such a different feel than the SM57/SM7 plus AKG 414 setup that I've been using. This last time I used an NT1 though... to brigthen things up a tad bit.

[Mark7]

Originally Posted by Richard Monroe

I guess I'm in the middle. I think a project studio is built of cheap things that work, mid priced stuff that works better, and a few things that really are top of the line. You can only have so many of those. Here are my price point all-stars:

Dynamics:

< $100- Shure SM57, Sennheiser e835, AKG D770, AT Pro25 (close enough)
< $500- Shure SM7B, Sennheiser MD421/ e609, AKG D112, Audix D6
> $500- Sennheiser MD441, Electrovoice RE20

Small Diaphragm Condensers:

< $100- Behringer ECM8000, MXL603, Oktava MC012
< $200- Studio Projects C-4, Rode NT-5
< $500- AKG C451, Josephson C42
> $500- Earthworks SR77, Schoeps CM6

Large Diaphragm Condensers:

< $100- Studio Projects B-1, MXL V67, Oktava MK319
< $200- CAD M179, AKG C2000B (actually an SD), Rode NT1
< $500- B.L.U.E. Baby Bottle, Studio Projects C-1/C-3, Shure KSM32, AT4033/4040 (4033 is also an SD)
< $1000- Shure KSM44, B.L.U.E. Dragonfly, AKG C414 (any version), Soundelux U195
> $1000- Soundelux U99/ ifet7, B.L.U.E. Kiwi, Neumann U87

Tube mics:

< $500- Rode NTK, Studio Projects T3
< $1000- AT 4060
> $1000- Soundelux U195, Lawson L47 MKII, Brauner Valvet


While there are many more excellent mics in every price range, it is my contention that every mic listed above will be found to be good *for something*, and will be worth the price paid for it in the long run.-Richie

Can anyone spot where Richie's gone wrong here?

[Richard Monroe]

Oops, thanks Mark. The > $1000 tube mic should be Soundelux U99. It was a little late. Edited- all better now.-Richie

[junplugged]

OT, you guys have Korg d1600's? Where's a good discussion/threads for it here?