Honest opinions wanted

[Enchilada]

This is the first serious song I've written. It's about youth suicide in Australia.
I big on promoting awareness of youth suicide. My old band once toured and all money raised went so youth suicide prevention.
It's a hip-hop song to the words will be rapped/spoken.
Remember that we're all more or less anon. so please be honest
Ench.

Chorus part 1:
Realise that your life aint through
Listen to my advice it's not the thing to do
There's pro's who can advise you don't have to stew
You never know, you could take a new point of view


Verse 1:
Cos I’ve seen it on TV and radio
Tales of sisters and bros who's lives were aglow
But although you feel stuck in a low plateau
Remember God is faithful, he'll never let go

Confide in him about you woes it helps the pain subside
Take a deep breath, think of the rest of your life
Think about your loved ones who stuck by your side
Before you even think to consider suicide

Today an Australian ended their own life in some way
Another 20 more attempted today.
A family and their friends trailing behind a hearse
Statistics show youth suicide’s getting worse

Over the last 2 years the number has increased
Of young people whose lives have ceased
It’s the biggest killer of people aged 15 to 24
Awareness must be raised, that’s what we’re here for.


Chorus Part 2:
This is serious shit lets get straight to the point
You're delirious if quick fix it is your ploy
More than two, and a half thousand Aussies each year
All the cheer disappears and is replaced with tears


Verse 2:
Prevention is best if you know someone who's stressed
Look for the warning signs cos they could be depressed
If their dress and appearance has a sense of apathy
Encourage them to talk, and listen that’s the best strategy

Never panic or interrupt with your own tales
That’s not what listening entails
Ask em out for night on the town
Be persistent even if you're always turned town

Withdrawal form friends, social engagements
And things that were previously done for entertainment
Could be a small hint in your general direction
From themselves need protection from friends love and affection

Let em know that you care, if your needed you're there
Acknowledge their despair about how life can be unfair
Point out the consequences of committing suicide
For the individual and the people that they leave behind


Chorus:
Realise that your life aint through
Listen to my advice it's not the thing to do
There's pro's who can advise you don't have to stew
You never know, you could take a new point of view

This is serious shit lets get straight to the point
You're delirious if quick fix it is your ploy
More than two and a half thousand Aussies each year
All the cheer disappears and is replaced with tears

[Garry Sharp]

OK, you asked for honesty, so I'll deliver.

It's dreadful. What I mean is, I really hate it. It sounds like a government advice leaflet wrapped up in a third grade attempt at lyrics. Apart from its artistic shortcomings, you must appreciate that the way to get to teenagers is never tell, always show. The best songwriters never make their point directly, they tell a story which illustrates it.

If you want to use a song in the totally laudable aim of addressing youth suicides, for heaven's sake find somebody who can write to tell a story about a needless suicide in circumstances the kids will recognise. Let them work the message out - kids do what they figure out for themselves, not what you tell them.

I'm sorry, I'm not usually critical, but this thing of yours could do more harm than good.

[junplugged]

One good way to show something is not to explain it but to actually allow a listener to visualize a situation thru a story situation.

Take Ice Cube's "Once Upon A Time In The Projects." He starts right away with specifics in the situation that he's in. "...I heard her knock on the door with out the password and her Mom's got the 12-guage Mossberg..." Situation completely and very easily understood, then, after all the details and entertianment, he gets busted b/c he's picking up a girl who's in a crack house, so the last line, he finally comes up with "...don't fu<k with a b!tch from the projects." Now, that's not as serious, but it uses technique that gets his point out.

Show a situation surrounding teen suicide and make a listener feel like it sucks. Do you really listen to people who give you straight out advice? I don't; you start tellin' me some sh!t from your point of view, and I start thinking, "Who is this a-hole with such a big head that he's gonna school me on some sh!t, he probly just wants to hear hisself talk, f' him." Or if it's a lyric or a poem, it's hard to read.

Entertainment is hard to achieve. Entertainment with a positive message is even trickier. But at least use the techniques developed over time, you know: strong start, payoff, detail, visual stuff, details, theatrical stuff, a start a middle and an end, go somewhere, detials, use conversational language, know your audience, use the audience's language and lingo if needed, details, put your most important words at the end of each line, only rhyme for a reason, don't rhyme for the hell of it, etc. It still applies to rap as it does to every other lyric.

Good luck, it's very imporant to make a postitive difference and help people with entertainment, it's the highest use of the genre. Let us know how it's going, edit and re-post.

[Enchilada]

Thanks HEAPS for the advice Guys!
You have no idea how hard it is to find an honest opinion.
As I said I'm new to this songwriting getup so I can use all the help I can get.
I originally thought about telling a story but I assumd that it'd end up just like everyother song. This song was, in a sense, intended to be a leaflet so kids could know what signs to look for.
Having taken on your advice, that was a bad idea
I'll try again and re-post the result

[Enchilada]

If you want to hear the music I intend to put this song to I posted it in the mp3 mixing forum.
You can download the song here:
http://csusap.csu.edu.au/~kosull03/help.wma

[Songwriter333]

I tried the link to listen to music but received error- could be just me. Assume the tempo/pace of the lyrics would come quickly for the song not to be too long.

[andyhix]

yup, the previous posters are right on. Much too straight forward. tell a good story. this one particular aussie that killed himself, for instance. or just a made up person, if thats easier. Try a "its a wonderful life" approach maybe? Just an idea that popped into my head - might be crap. MAybe though, outline one suicide in detail and SUBTLY point out why it was the wrong choice. I certainly appreciate your efforts. Hopefully the constructive critism makes you work that much harder and more effectively towards your goal.

[glynb]

Enchilada,
Thing to do is keep working on it. Lyric writing is like any other skill you can learn from mistakes and get better. Revise, review, rewrite, keep at it. Never give up.

Like you said, you're anonymous here, you can make mistakes here and everyone's forgotten about it next week. if you put out a CD with mistakes on under your name its out there forever!

It would be interesting to see some of Eminem's early lyric atempts, but doubt we'll get the chance!

The best advice is to write about what you know or have experienced. I haven't experienced life in the ghetto, so if I tried to write about that it would be phoney and I'd make a hash of it for sure. I do know about life in an office, so i can write about that and it comes easier as a result!

[eMTPy]

Mad props to you enchilada for accepting the criticism.

I only read part way through. I'm very aware of the issue. Best friend of mine lost his girlfriend to a suicide. I was with him when he found her. What you are trying to prevent is noble.

I think it's alright to be very direct with a song. I don't think your intent or meaning has to be subtle, not that it matters what i'm thinking here . . But I'd suggest what some other critics were hinting at - develop the scene, the emotion, the pain, the desire to just give up. Maybe provide a way out of that, a way to get beyond that. To touch into the love for life again more consciously.

I dunno. I've just found out that I find it just as hard to give criticism as I do to take it. Hopefully that's constructive.

[new388]

Originally Posted by Garry Sharp

The best songwriters never make their point directly, they tell a story which illustrates it.

I'm not sure why you claim to speak for all songwriters but try to understand that there is no song writing God, no one who dictates what path a writer should take or what works best. Some of the BEST songwriters often go direct for the jugular and don't beat around the bush trying to fancy-fy it. It takes all kinds, Billy Joel (She's got a way, Always a women, Allentown, etc.) James Taylor, (Smiling Face, as direct as song as you can get, not a story song) Steamroller, etc., John and Paul (Back in the USSR, Yesterday, Hello Goodbye, Down let me Down, etc., etc., etc. These are direct songs, with little in the way of imagery. It's all good, don't limit yourself to thinking songs only work in a certain way. A song could be full of imagery, or poetic or straight forward, there are no rules and all the BEST songwriters know this.

[Garry Sharp]

Fair point new388 - well taken. My post was a bit harsh - apologies to enchilada.

[Blink 182]

is there any way i can find out more about the kind of things your doing to raise awareness about this? this subject is very close to home for me.

the whole concept of suicide is to do with overwelming emotion, usually despair and depression. i just think using some of that emotion in a song would help to bring the point home a little better.

[junplugged]

I've been planning to write one of these also. But I haven't really attempted it since I upped my lyric writing skills over the post few years. I think some research may be helpful, search the web for suicide prevention and the psychology behind it may be some help.

The best thing, would be to find someone's story who either attmpted and survived or came from considering it to some better place and how and why they did. It would be good to get their vibe and put to music what got them to a better place. I'm getting inspired and wheels are tuning, gotta go grab a pen and one of my notbooks...

[Enchilada]

Originally Posted by junplugged

I've been planning to write one of these also. But I haven't really attempted it since I upped my lyric writing skills over the post few years. I think some research may be helpful, search the web for suicide prevention and the psychology behind it may be some help.

The best thing, would be to find someone's story who either attmpted and survived or came from considering it to some better place and how and why they did. It would be good to get their vibe and put to music what got them to a better place. I'm getting inspired and wheels are tuning, gotta go grab a pen and one of my notbooks...

Is personal experience enough?

[Purge]

Originally Posted by Enchilada

Is personal experience enough?

Absolutely. And I think that goes along the lines of what people here are trying to say. Let me put it this way: I'm getting a better picture of the personal impact that this topic has on you based more upon your posts here than I did from your song. You have a story. Something happened in your life that made suicide a big deal for you. Whatever that story happens to be will drive a point home more than the "leaflet style" will.

Example: I've never met anyone that quit smoking due to the surgeon general's warning, hearing non-smokers bitch about the quality of their air, or any of the countless (and mundane) statistics that get thrown at them all the time. But find a guy whose wife died of cancer because he refused to smoke outside and I guarantee you that the guy is done smoking. The passion and regret that he feels as a result might even have a chance of convincing other people to do the same. See the difference?

What you're doing is a good and noble thing. Write a song from the painful place in your gut that made you want to take up this cause, and you will get your point across. Write it down "stream of consciousness" style first, and throw the rhymes down as an editing process. Whether the song rhymes or not isn't nearly as important as what you have to say.

[jalbert]

I'm sure you have good intentions but maybe you could find more original subject matter. I mean ANOTHER song about youth suicide in Australia?? Seems like that's all I hear on the radio these days.

But seriously, do you really need to make a song out of this? I think you might better off just speaking about it. I know I'd be more willing to pay attention to someone talking honestly about their thoughts and concerns than to an awkward, depressing Rap song. Not every topic is good for songwriting. In fact most topics aren't. To me it seems like the more depressing the issue the vaguer the lyrics need to be for the song to be listenable. That is, more emotion, less statistics. If you're Bob Dylan you can write stuff like "The Lonesome Death of Hattie Carrol"(that is extremely dark and explicit) and pull it off. But we're not all Bob Dylan. And in this case the statistics and specifics seem very imporatant. So why try cramming it all into a song? Write it all out without the confines of 'verse', 'bridge' and 'chorus'. I'm sure there's places and people willing to let you talk about this. And if you still want to sing(or Rap) about it try making that incarnation of it more personal.
But really, wouldn't you rather write a song about fast cars? I'm pretty sure no one's done that yet.

[LimoWreck]

Ummm... maybe someone has mentioned this already...


metaphor? maybe just a little?

[Enchilada]

Originally Posted by jalbert

I'm sure you have good intentions but maybe you could find more original subject matter. I mean ANOTHER song about youth suicide in Australia??

What songs on radio now in Australia are about youth suicide?

Originally Posted by jalbert

To me it seems like the more depressing the issue the vaguer the lyrics need to be for the song to be listenable.

Yeah I thought about an indirect story approach but then it would end up like every other song ever written. At the moment I'm working on a redo at the moment that'll have a bit of a story but I'm going to leave the second verse more or less as it is

Originally Posted by jalbert

But really, wouldn't you rather write a song about fast cars? I'm pretty sure no one's done that yet.

Shannon Noll - Drive.

Originally Posted by Garry Sharp

Fair point new388 - well taken. My post was a bit harsh - apologies to enchilada.

Not needed dude. If that's what you thought then that's what I want to hear. It won't do me any good to tone it down

[junplugged]

Pop music is part of entertainment. Where subjects exists to provide a framework for a song, so when you try to reverse it and create a song to provide a framework for a subject, it is a little different. It happens and is notable when done well. It's a big challenge and of course the best stuff has meaning, IMHO. Also, you don't have to get it perfect on the first shot. You can have that theme running thru many songs in a collection and still be entertaining and maybe more impactful. To draw someone in to a song, you need to have them identify with it first. And you still need to know that whatever style you choose, that will limit the audience to those who listen to that style. So it's a big job, yet doable, and unknown how effective it could be. But when done well, could be powerful. I certainly wouldn't attempt it in my first 100 songs written, until I have some experience writing great songs, and then apply that expertise to this subject. I wouldn't ever want to be misinterpreted as encouraging it by some mistake I made in writing....

[jalbert]

Originally Posted by jalbert
I'm sure you have good intentions but maybe you could find more original subject matter. I mean ANOTHER song about youth suicide in Australia??

Originally Posted by Enchilada

What songs on radio now in Australia are about youth suicide?

Originally Posted by jalbert
But really, wouldn't you rather write a song about fast cars? I'm pretty sure no one's done that yet.

Originally Posted by Enchilada

Shannon Noll - Drive.

Forget my suggestions for your song and try working on your sense of humor. Those were both jokes, get it?
And if you can't joke about youth suicide in Australia, than what can you joke about? See, that was another one.
Nevermind.

[Enchilada]

Originally Posted by jalbert

Forget my suggestions for your song and try working on your sense of humor. Those were both jokes, get it?
And if you can't joke about youth suicide in Australia, than what can you joke about? See, that was another one.
Nevermind.

Franky you have to be one sick individual to find youth suicide funny. But lets review.....

Originally Posted by jalbert

I mean ANOTHER song about youth suicide in Australia??

Forgive me for missing the punch line. So there's no songs on the radio about youth suicide, yet there's a pun there somewhere???? I wouldn't talk about a sense of humor if I made jokes that bad buddy.

[TheMusic]

The first quatrain sounds kind of un...un...yknow, it doesn't sound catchy.

[InTheFire]

Originally Posted by Enchilada

Franky you have to be one sick individual to find youth suicide funny. But lets review.....

Forgive me for missing the punch line. So there's no songs on the radio about youth suicide, yet there's a pun there somewhere???? I wouldn't talk about a sense of humor if I made jokes that bad buddy.

I thought it was funny... It's not your personal experience he's talking about nor the subject of youth suicide. We're in a forum talking about a bad lyric and your inability to express yourself in a fashion that people can understand and relate to. If you can't laugh at this tiny thing, I definitely don't think you'll reach any youth about this subject.

[jalbert]

Thanks InTheFire. And for christ's sake, Enchilada, lighten up. And don't call me buddy, mate.

[Enchilada]

poofter