Not sure if this ? belongs here or on the Mic forum.

[guitarlover]

I started a thread several months ago about live performance. This is something I haven't really done. I'm a classical guitarist and my needs are minor. I will be doing mainly weddings and other smaller venues.

I have a Crate amp (the acoustic model) but there is no reverb. I'm currently using a Shure PG81 mic with it. Bearing mind that a classical guitar, mine at least is very loud for an acoustic but at times still needs a little help.

My question is this: I want to warm things up a little. Even the acoustic amp can sound a little harsh at times. I can either buy a new mic (I will probably do this regardless), a reverb unit, a tube or other warmer pre-amp, an effects processor or some combination of the above.

Obviously, the fewer components, the better. Can anyone suggest a direction to go in? I know some allowance must be made for different venues but I'm unsure where to start.

Any thoughts?

Thanks, Steve

[chessrock]

Originally Posted by guitarlover

I can either buy a new mic (I will probably do this regardless), a reverb unit, a tube or other warmer pre-amp, an effects processor or some combination of the above.

Well . . . reverb will only make it sound harsh and wet.

A (cheap) tube mic pre will make it sound harsh and a little fizzy.

An effects processor will only make it sound harsh and effected.

I'd have a closer look at the mic and the amp. Most often in live situations, when something sounds harsh, it's usually a result of boosting too much high end using a cheap equalizer on their board, the amplifier . . . perhaps both. The microphone may also have something to do with it in some cases. The type of strings you're using and the way you play can have an effect.

Hope that helps a little.

[guitarlover]

Maybe "harsh" was too strong a term. The sound is actually pretty good but since I can't mic it as you would in a recording environment you miss some of the richness of the guitar. Given what you are saying, I think a better tube pre may be the way to go as well as maybe a LDC mic.

Thanks for the help though.

Steve

[dirtythermos]

I once mixed for a classical guitar & flute duo, and the guitarist brought his own AT 4041, which we ran straight into the board with great results.

[chessrock]

Originally Posted by guitarlover

I think a better tube pre may be the way to go . . .

To run in to an amplifier? Heavens, no. Do you know how much good tube mic pres cost? What you need to do is ditch the amplifier and run in to a nice PA system. Your Crate amplifier isn't exactly designed to convey and amplify the subtle nuances of classical guitar, my friend. It's designed for other things. Like plugging an electric guitar in to the hi-Z input and sounding really bad.

[StevenLindsey]

Originally Posted by chessrock

To run in to an amplifier? Heavens, no. Do you know how much good tube mic pres cost? What you need to do is ditch the amplifier and run in to a nice PA system. Your Crate amplifier isn't exactly designed to convey and amplify the subtle nuances of classical guitar, my friend. It's designed for other things. Like plugging an electric guitar in to the hi-Z input and sounding really bad.

Sorry, must agree. I have a Crate acoustic amp and it pretty much....stinks. In fact, I've heard some very high end acoustics run through high end acoustic amps and they ALL stinked.. he he.. I saw Doyle Dykes not long ago doing taylors through some fine acoustic amp and I hated the tone. He finally turned the amp down and played a song with his daughter with the guitar sounding natural and my ears said ahh. I'd get me a nice little powered mixer with some good pres (Soundcraft Powerstation? or a Soundraft M4 and a good power amp) and a KSM44.

[mshilarious]

I'd ditch the amp first, the mic probably isn't that bad. I've used the very similar SM94 for acoustic instruments live extensively, and I get a nice tone. I'd be kind of leery of using the $500 KSM44 on stage all the time.

[guitarlover]

Originally Posted by chessrock

To run in to an amplifier? Heavens, no. Do you know how much good tube mic pres cost? What you need to do is ditch the amplifier and run in to a nice PA system. Your Crate amplifier isn't exactly designed to convey and amplify the subtle nuances of classical guitar, my friend. It's designed for other things. Like plugging an electric guitar in to the hi-Z input and sounding really bad.

Pardon if my ignorance shows . What exactly is the difference between an amp and a PA. The next question then is are there portable PA's made for this purpose?

Thanks, Steve

[StevenLindsey]

I'd bet this would be very nice indeed for live use with some good speakers...maybe even the smaller one.

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Gigrac600/

Well an amp is a component of a PA system. I guess PA system is just a term for the whole shebang..mixer, preamps, speakers, mics. I suppose any amp with a speaker and a mic or instrument input is technically a PA system. ahh forget it.

I'd just be looking for something that could capture the natural tone of the guitar (ie NOT a piezo) and project it well to an audience.

[omtayslick]

Supposedly, acoustic guitar amps are more similar to PA amplification than their electric counterparts. (flatter) you should get the micing equivilant of a mini-PA. BTW, I too think that your mic is fine for this purpose, but perhaps the amp is too small, ot too directional, or the wrong choice brandwise, for the sound you want. I use a Fender Acoustisonic Jr., and am not thrilled with the sound either. But it works for acoustic guitar in a band context. But playing solo, you're hanging out there on your own, so getting the proper amplified tone is pretty tough without a real PA.

[omtayslick]

Oh, and if it matters, I passed on the Crate acoustic amps because of what I perceived to be too much emphasis on the highs.

[guitarlover]

Originally Posted by omtayslick

But playing solo, you're hanging out there on your own, so getting the proper amplified tone is pretty tough without a real PA.

Thank you ! You put into words what I was feeling. Can you recommend a real PA in the 10-20- watt class? I won't say that price is no object but I would prefer to wait and get a decent one the first itme around.

Regards, Steve

PS Anybody wanna buy a Crate?

[omtayslick]

This is a little bigger than 20 watts, but headroom IS important. Cleaner sound if you're only using a small portion of your available power. It's easily portable, provides plenty of EQ options, digital effects, and phantom power for condenser mics.

http://www.carvin.com/products/singl...0-805&CID=SYS1

[Warhead]

Some would say you're committing a "Crate Crime"...

War

[guitarlover]

Originally Posted by omtayslick

This is a little bigger than 20 watts, but headroom IS important. Cleaner sound if you're only using a small portion of your available power. It's easily portable, provides plenty of EQ options, digital effects, and phantom power for condenser mics.

http://www.carvin.com/products/singl...0-805&CID=SYS1

Thanks for the heads up! Now I know what to look for. I've done some checking around and there seems to me only 4 or 5 major mfrs of these. Is there a brand I should steer clear from? Or is the Carvin the acknowledged "best". I ask because it's unlikely that I could audition the Carvin given the way they distribute directly from the factory. The other ones I can probably check out locally.

Thank again, Steve

[StevenLindsey]

If I were you, I'd not go below...200 watts on a pa. You need some good clean wattage to get the real sound out of your guitar. Make that 300 watts. Yes even for lower volume levels.

No Carvin isn't the acknowledged best.

[omtayslick]

Carvin is not the "best", they just offer a lot for the money. I've heard some of their stuff before and it seems solid. There are plenty of other similar small systems from various manufacturers. Fender, Peavey, Kustom, and yes, even Crate. Depends on what you want to accomplish. A system that is easily portable is important to me, but may not be as big a deal to others.

As an aside, I am currently experiencing some difficulties with Carvin's "customer service department" with an order that I placed from them recently. They are not the most concerned, conscientious, or even competent folks I have ever dealt with.

Your best move might be to search the music retailer web sites, (Musician's Friend, etc.) and zero in on a system that meets your needs. Then maybe get a local dealer to match their price.

The best? Maybe this: http://www.bose.com/controller;jsessionid=1Ke0lZNc38YqP7BmhmcNNoezkqLl7115XYeBv5VhBPWnkDLh1bj8!-368165412!-1872267545?event=VIEW_STATIC_PAGE_EVENT&url=/musicians/index.jsp&linksource=centernav_img_musicians&pageName=/index_2.jsp

But it's a little pricey.

[omtayslick]

OOps! Link doesn't work. Try this:
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/...se_pid/602081/

Another possibility would be one of these with a mixer or preamp:
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/...se_pid/600210/

[guitarlover]

Originally Posted by omtayslick

But it's a little pricey.

A LITTLE!?!

Just kidding. I'm going to order 2 of them tomorrow...

Or maybe not.

I looked at the Fenders today at the local Guitar Center. Chances are I'll buy from a local company. They need the business.

I'm not sure what I'll get but I do like the fact that the Fender is very portable and folds up into a nice package. For what I am planning to do, either the 150 watt or the 250 watt models would fill the bill.

I'm thinking that I should be able to take in a CD play with a CD of the type of music I play to do the audition. I realize that this isn't the same as live but the dynamic range will be similar and I can make adjustments to the mics.

With the PA's I can try stereo which may give a better sound. I can use the mics in an X-Y config. If I get too much feedback, I can always cut back to 1 mic.

Thanks, BTW, for all the help. You folks on the forum have never steered me wrong. I just wish I'd known about this site before I'd wasted a lot of money! I'm planning to put a bunch of stuff on eBay in the next week so I can finance this little adventure.

Regards, Steve

[Richard Monroe]

I use the Fender PD250 and it's a lovely small PA. There are 4 Passport units: P150 and P250, which are being phased out and replaced by PD150 and PD250. The only difference between the "P" and "PD" units are the speakers, which are vastly superior on the PD units. Yes, it's worth the extra money. The 150 units come with 1 mic, and the 250 units with 2 mics. The Fender P51 mic, as near as I can tell, is a rebadged AKG cheapie. I kept one as a talkback mic, because it's the only mic I own with an on-off switch on it. As I record in a room, it is handy to be able to kill the talkback mic without messing with the gain. The other I sold on ebay for $47 (there's one born every minute), which took that much right off the cost of the PA. For solo gigs or an acoustic duo, the passport PD series is a very good small PA.-Richie

P.S.- Now, ditch that PG81 and get a mic.