Key of a song?

[Thorguitarist]

How Is the key of a song determined...I've heard the first note you hit, but i know thats wrong

[cliff richard]

im not really sure and would like to know the exact answer myself. but my theory is, if u take the note C for example the scale is cdefgabc, for F it is fga,a sharp,cdef. Each note has its own scale therefore if you write a song and the notes within that song mostly fall into a certain scale then that is the key.

[Thorguitarist]

I actually downloaded a Guitar Chord book, and in there it had what chords belong in what keys, and there was probably every chord on there. You think that could help?

[cliff richard]

im not sure, i play piano and guitar, i had piano lessons when i was young and taught myself guitar, so when it comes to guitar i dont have much of a clue, is there a particular reason why you need to know the key of a song?

[Thorguitarist]

No real reason i think it would help me become a better musician. Also for writing my songs. Well we both taught ourselves to play guitar but must have skipped over the Key Signature part...

[Gidge]

Its usually that chord that the song always seems to resolve to.....

if you think in terms of a basic 1-4-5 chord progression, the 1- chord is the key (Cmajor if the chords are c-f-g)......

heres some other thoughts.....

http://www.dataflo.net/~mpurintun/ho...a_song_key.htm

http://guitarists.net/lessons/view.p..._in_music.html

http://virtualturntable.org/archives/000146.php

[mindwave_21]

Haha...I've had a lot of trouble with this also. Most of the time, we worry about the key changes, but that's not going to really tell you the key unless you spot the progressions (145 251 etc). I guess you have to first determine if the song is major or minor in mood and then doodle around on the guitar until you find the scale that fits. A pentatonic (major or minor) will give you the outline of the scale so you should start there. Pick one of the pentatonic patterns you're familiar with and know where the root is, and then play around until you find the right key. It's a little stupid method-wise, and you can mess up if you find the IV or V instead of the I of the key, but I think you can eventually hear what key it's in.
PS - I also heard that rock uses the I chord a lot as the first for the song. Also try to spot a 145 in a rock song, as 95% of them have this progression somewhere. Jazz is another story, but if you're playing jazz, you're probably getting the charts that have the key signature anyways. You'll find a 251 in jazz nearly every time so look for that.

[Farview]

Originally Posted by cliff richard

i is there a particular reason why you need to know the key of a song?

Yes, so you know what notes to sing, what scale to solo with, what the next chord could possibly be. Music is easy to figure out once you know how it works. If you take the time to learn how everything fits together, you won't have to reinvent the wheel every time you get stuck while you are writing a song.

[nickjc]

Originally Posted by Farview

Yes, so you know what notes to sing, what scale to solo with, what the next chord could possibly be. Music is easy to figure out once you know how it works. If you take the time to learn how everything fits together, you won't have to reinvent the wheel every time you get stuck while you are writing a song.

yeah, I agree.

I don't know bollocks about key signatures or scales, etc, but I know what sounds right to me. When you hit a chord progression, and it just keeps returning to that one chord, then that's probably the key chord.

having said this, once you've learned the rules, there's nothing stopping you breaking them

I heard on U2's "Bullet the Blue Sky" that the bass and the guitar are in different keys, but it still works, so watcha gonna do?

[Farview]

Originally Posted by nickjc

I heard on U2's "Bullet the Blue Sky" that the bass and the guitar are in different keys, but it still works, so watcha gonna do?

They are in relative keys, thats why it works.

No you don't have to know how something works to be able to use it, but when there is a problem, you are better off knowing more about how something works than less.

[SonarSongwriter]

Its really based on the scale for example if you are playing a c major scale the 1st 4th and 5th in that scale are the major chords. C, F, G if you are playing this chord progression then you can solo in the key of C and it will sound great as long as your are pretty good!!

Mark

[dragonworks]

Quit beating around the bush and do as Fairview says. Pick up a book and learn something. You wouldn't start out on a long drive without first finding the route,
you will get lost 99 percent of the time. That is just what you are doing on your insrument.

[Layla Nahar]

Originally Posted by Thorguitarist

How Is the key of a song determined...I've heard the first note you hit, but i know thats wrong

Why do you want to know? Are you writing a lead sheet and need to pick a key signature? Have you written a chord progression and are 'getting lost'? or have you completed something and are asking this for curiosity/learning purposes? not all music has an identifiable key - I have a friend whose thing is atonal funk

[Purge]

Little intro to keys--hope this helps a bit. For starters, here's the notes in each key:

C: C D E F G A B
G: G A B C D E F#
D: D E F# G A B C#
A: A B C# D E F# G#
E: E F# G# A B C# D#
B: B C# D# E F# G# A#
F#: F# G# A# B C# D# E# (yeah, E# is the same as F, but this keeps with the cool alphabet scheme...)
Db: Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb C
Ab: Ab Bb C Db Eb F G
Eb: Eb F G Ab Bb C D
Bb: Bb C D Eb F G A
F: F G A Bb C D E

Take the 1st, 4th, and 5th notes in each of those keys and make a major chord using that note as your root note (the lowest note in the chord). That's why you hear "I IV V" progression thrown around quite a bit. To find the minor chords, do the same thing with the 2nd, 3rd, and 6th notes (but with minor chords, obviously).

Each key has a "relative" minor key associated with it. To find which minor key corresponds to its major key, just look at the 6th note. For example, E minor is relative to G.

Start with that, and let me know if this is worth anything to the people who have never really done much with theory.

[mynameisscott]

Originally Posted by Purge

Little intro to keys--hope this helps a bit. For starters, here's the notes in each key:

C: C D E F G A B
G: G A B C D E F#
D: D E F# G A B C#
A: A B C# D E F# G#
E: E F# G# A B C# D#
B: B C# D# E F# G# A#
F#: F# G# A# B C# D# E# (yeah, E# is the same as F, but this keeps with the cool alphabet scheme...)
Db: Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb C
Ab: Ab Bb C Db Eb F G
Eb: Eb F G Ab Bb C D
Bb: Bb C D Eb F G A
F: F G A Bb C D E

Take the 1st, 4th, and 5th notes in each of those keys and make a major chord using that note as your root note (the lowest note in the chord). That's why you hear "I IV V" progression thrown around quite a bit. To find the minor chords, do the same thing with the 2nd, 3rd, and 6th notes (but with minor chords, obviously).

Each key has a "relative" minor key associated with it. To find which minor key corresponds to its major key, just look at the 6th note. For example, E minor is relative to G.

Start with that, and let me know if this is worth anything to the people who have never really done much with theory.

yeah that helps me , i've never realy thought about keys much , it would help if i could remember all the notes on the guitar though i think i'll go and learn them too

[rpe]

Purge,

Nice explanation of the circle of 5ths. Good job.

rpe

[philboyd studge]

The key of a song in western music is the scale of the melody. It can change, but most of the time it's in one key.

[bennychico11]

Originally Posted by rpe

Purge,

Nice explanation of the circle of 5ths. Good job.

rpe

Circle of 5ths?!?!?!?! I always thought it was the cycle of 4ths!!!!!!!!! Crap, my whole life has been wasted....hahah

Anyway, key signatures are not mandatory. Key signatures are only put into a song to help make things simpler for the musicians...and composer (so he doesn't have to write sharps and flats after every note).

[xfinsterx]

Let me start off by saying "music theory is NOT a bad thing"

however....

throw the books out the window and use your instinct and heart.

can you believe people actually write books and articles on

"How to write a great song"

damn that pisses me off.

way to pasturize the public!

i may be wrong about this, but i doubt it.

[mshilarious]

Originally Posted by xfinsterx

Let me start off by saying "music theory is NOT a bad thing"

however....

throw the books out the window and use your instinct and heart.

Problem with that is people will tend to write very simple and repetitive constructions as a result of not being exposed to theory.

My philosophy is to study the book carefully, THEN throw it out the window.

[Farview]

Originally Posted by bennychico11

Anyway, key signatures are not mandatory. Key signatures are only put into a song to help make things simpler for the musicians...and composer (so he doesn't have to write sharps and flats after every note).

You can always get by knowing how to do something, but you can't be truly great without knowing WHY to do something.

[BentRabbit]

Originally Posted by xfinsterx

can you believe people actually write books and articles on

"How to write a great song"

damn that pisses me off.

way to pasturize the public!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Reminds me of a time back in 'the good old days' when a well-intentioned (albeit, pretty inebriated) fella came up to me when we were on a break and said: "All ya gotta do, if ya wanna make it in the music business, is: Write hit songs..."

(geeeze... who knew?)

Dave G

[Purge]

Originally Posted by xfinsterx

Let me start off by saying "music theory is NOT a bad thing"

however....

throw the books out the window and use your instinct and heart.

can you believe people actually write books and articles on

"How to write a great song"

damn that pisses me off.

way to pasturize the public!

i may be wrong about this, but i doubt it.

True enough. But it's a lot easier to say this if you've actually been playing awhile. If "playing from the heart" is all it really took, then any of us should have been able to pick up an instrument for the very first time and somehow instinctively know exactly where our fingers were supposed to go. (I know this is isn't what you're implying, so don't worry--I'm not just trying to be a dick...) I think a lot of people are put off by the idea of theory claiming that they don't want their music to become a mathematics problem, and that's pretty understandable. But knowing some basics will never make your playing worse, and it isn't nearly as difficult as people initially think. And I totally agree with mshilarious--study the book first, then throw it out the window. I think too many people out there ignore the first part of that sentence and they cheat themselves in the long run.

Definitely agree with you on the "how to write a hit song" thing. That's just fucking stupid.

[bennychico11]

Originally Posted by Farview

You can always get by knowing how to do something, but you can't be truly great without knowing WHY to do something.

Originally Posted by mshilarious

Problem with that is people will tend to write very simple and repetitive constructions as a result of not being exposed to theory.

Well I know the why and the how already....but mshilarious said it better than I could though (at least in respect to compositions being too repetitive and simple....do you realize how many peices are in Bb or C just because people know those keys and don't know how to experiment with new ones?) I was just saying not to center on creating a key for your music. people worry too much about that. write the music and then figure out what key it is later to help out musicians.

[tigertales]

Originally Posted by Thorguitarist

How Is the key of a song determined...I've heard the first note you hit, but i know thats wrong

The 'key' of a song is the chord that that song begins with.

If you're playing "Me and Bobby McGee' and your band members all started playing G chord, that's the 'key' you are playing in. The 'key' of a song is just a clue to the rest of the players to play the song in the same position, if the lead guitarist starts the song with a run in the G position, then the rhythm guitarist had better be playing a G chord and the bassist had better be playing a run in G position or everything will sound like chit.

Tony.