Suggestions for first home studio (comment on my ideas so far)

[Fakesky]

Ive got a 340cm x 410cm room (approx) which I intend to equip with a worthwhile studio setup.

BUDGET: 2 644,84$ (20k in my local currency)

I want to record both acoustic and electric instruments;
a myriad of guitar/fx, piano, acoustic guitar and vocals.

This is my idea

Recording with NTrack (or likewise software)

------
INPUT
------
* PodXT as a USB soundcard
* Shure SM57 and SM58
* Delta 1010LT, as a PCI soundcard

The Pod for all things electric(mainly guitar),
the SM57 + 1010LT for acoustic piano/guitar,
and SM58 + 1010LT for vocals.

--------
OUTPUT
--------
* A good soundcard (which?) ->
* 2x Tanney Reveal Active
* AKG K240 Studio headphones

The idea here being that I could record one or all of the inputs
as I hear them through the monitors/headphones.

Is this at all possible, using the above equipment?
Likewise, is this the best equipment for the task, given
roughly the same price?

Greatful for any and all suggestions/tips/help

Peace
/Fakesky

[bubbleboy]

i'd go with active monitors instead

[apl]

I don't think you need both a USB and a PCI soundcard.

Also, the 1010 would work for outs.

[bubbleboy]

i've heard the drivers for the 1010LT are very stable. don't get m-audio monitors though. tannoys are respected fo sho

[mshilarious]

Did you really mean 5x10 ft? That is tiiiny.

Anyway, you don't really need both a 57 and a 58 unless you need two mics at one time. Just get the 57, and if you want a second mic, get a budget condenser. Or save up and buy a KSM32 instead.

Do you really need all the I/O of the 1010? Why not save some money with the 2496?

How about a mic preamp?

[Fakesky]

bubbleboy:
After some more reading here, I must agree.
Active seemed expensive until I understoo exactly what the difference was. =)

apl:
While I realize that I could connect the PODxt to the Delta,
wouldn´t that give a quality decrease?
Or is it dismissable? it would sure appear to be alot less hassle
if everything (including the podxt) could go into the delta,
and out of the delta to the monitors.

Anyhow, if we put away the Pod for awhile;
if I record through the delta, and uses it to output to the monitors,
will the recorded signal sound identical to the monitor output?
It would be somewhat more complicated if I had to account
for some aspect of diversity between what I hear playing,
and what I heard playing back what was recorded.

Also, correct me if Im wrong; but the Delta will act as a soundcard,
ie meaning that what I play on the computer (including stupid windows sounds) will be output to the monitors, if all is connected as should be?

In that case, wouldn´t a PodXT work both connected to the delta,
and as a USB soundcard, provided that I can record both at the same time?

I dont really need it to be a soundcard, but if the quality is at all better,
Id like at least the option to chose.

mshilarious:
I measured it and it was a bit bigger: 235cm x 410cm

I want to be able to record vocals and acoustic piano/guitar;
wouldn´t two mics be needed then?
Also, the SM58 is the better vocal mic of the two?

Regarding 1010LT vs 2496;
I can get the 1010LT for 382$, the 2496 for 276,96$.
If I am to connect the PODxt and two mics to the 2496, Im already
short one input.
Also, the difference in price is small enough that I
rather have too many, in case I ever want to record more instruments.

Also, I was under the impression that the 1010LT had mic preamps
(even at that good ones); or have I missed that chapter completely?
Is there any reason not to use those preamps, provided they infact
exist?

Thanks alot for all the help.. its a whole new world to enter. hehe

Peace
/Fakesky

[mshilarious]

Originally Posted by Fakesky

Thanks alot for all the help.. its a whole new world to enter. hehe

OK that all makes sense. I'm glad your room is a lot bigger.

Re: the SM58, it's a more convenient vocal mic (with its windscreen), but the SM57 basically sounds the same and it's $10 cheaper.

[Fakesky]

ok, but I figure I might as well spend the 10$ getting SM58, since I´ll have two mics anyhow. Its a rather small sum of the investment.

Also, I forgot to ask (whomever can answer),
how do I connect the headphones? Keeping in mind that I obviously want to hear "everything".

I couldn´t quite make out if it was just a matter of connecting the headphones to the cords from the card itself.

[notbradsohner]

check out wharfdale monitors

[apl]

I don't think you'll be able to tell the difference between the two, actually. If anything, the Delta should be better.

I used a Digitech RP50 as an amp simulator for the song in my signature line, plugged directly into my US122. It worked out well.

Just for simplicity, I would have only one soundcard.

[PiRequiem]

Originally Posted by Fakesky

ok, but I figure I might as well spend the 10$ getting SM58, since I´ll have two mics anyhow. Its a rather small sum of the investment.

the SM58 is a good live vocal mic, but for recording you should consider a condenser. typically, they're more "flatering" to the voice. check out the studio projects B1. they're about $80 USD and sound good on acoustics and guitar cabs too.

[kilowatt]

I have a Delta 1010 (not the LT) that I got on ebay for $300, and I love it. The macintosh drivers, which are the same, I think, as the LT drivers, are absolutely 100% stable.

One thing you may want consider is the acquisition of an analog mixing console, for the purpose of headphone mixes. And basic studio control. With the console I have, I can route signal to various outboard processors, listen to external sources (like a cd player, the radio, etc), record with EQ, plus, I have a volume control for my monitors - big plus.

Even the most basic live sound console will have a few AUX's you can use for the cue (headphone) mix.

Without an analog board for this, you'll either use your DAW's recording software for cue mixing, which will induce massive noticeable delay, or, use the Delta 1010's software control panel, for significantly less delay, but more confusion.

The other nice thing about the analog console is the ability to accept a wider range of inputs -10 consumer line level devices, +4, di instruments, microphones, phantom power'd mics, etc. Remember, the Delta 1010 is either +4, or -10, and does NOT have mic preamps.

So either an external preamp, or a decent console, will be needed. My console was only $200, and its been well worth it.


As for microphones, there are lots of microphones on ebay worth considering. I can't give away all my secrets, but there are some semi-decent Shure Unidyne microphones that are absolutely awesome going for less than $50.

If you're looking for good transient response, a condenser is definitely the way to go. Musicians Friend (.com) has a deal with two condensers - a large diaphragm, and a small diaphragm, for either $200, or $150. Get a pair, and you'll be set on that end.

I wouldn't waste your time with an SM58 either. The 57 /does/ sound a little different, and it is far easier to place on a crowded drum kit.

As for studio monitors, personally, I went with decent consumer speakers. Think about it this way, if it sounds good on your consumer speakers, then you're done. Big studios with expensive (genelec, urie, etc) speakers have the disadvantage of listening to music in a truly unrealistic environment. Who has speakers like that at home? Of course, this is where that pair of NS-10's come in...

I have Fisher "studio monitors" here. And I'd like a pair of JBLs for large mains.

Back to headphones, you'll need a headphone amplifier for them. You can do this a few ways - either shop the yard sales for old stereo gear - anything with an AUX or Tape input, and a head phone jack, or, you can build or convert something else to work.

The more auxes, and headphone amps you have, the more flexibility you'll have with tracking. Although, with only 8 inputs and 8 outputs, things probably won't get too complicated.

Also, consider learning the fine art of soldering. If you can solder, you can build and repair cables, and cables can be expensive. Personally, I'm about to go in with a few friends on about 400 feet of Canari mic cable.

Another thing you'll want to try, is learning to mic a drum kit with two or three mics. One in the kick, two placed within the room, wherever it sounds best. Dead rooms sound dead. Live, reflective rooms sound live and reflective. Rather than stapling sound dampening materials to the walls, build movable 'gobos' so you can adjust your acoustic space. I've gotten great results in a 12x12 room micing a drum kit with two mics. Just take your time placing them, and you'll be fine.

Oh, one other thing, get a really cheap microphone for talk back. Or two. I keep one right by the computer and console, and I can shout at the band any time with it.

[Blue Bear Sound]

Originally Posted by kilowatt

As for studio monitors, personally, I went with decent consumer speakers. Think about it this way, if it sounds good on your consumer speakers, then you're done. Big studios with expensive (genelec, urie, etc) speakers have the disadvantage of listening to music in a truly unrealistic environment. Who has speakers like that at home? Of course, this is where that pair of NS-10's come in...

This is wrong on so many levels, I wouldn't know where to begin to correct you..........

[deepwater]

Blue Bear I'm with you. That has to be the most incorrect post in the history of homerecording.com

Is there anyway to ban that guy?

[kilowatt]

Originally Posted by deepwater

Blue Bear I'm with you. That has to be the most incorrect post in the history of homerecording.com

Is there anyway to ban that guy?

I'm sure there is, if you really feel that way.

If you're still keeping an open mind however, let me explain in more detail my post.

The amount of money it will take to correct acoustics in the average home studio and purchase relatively flat monitors is well out of reach for most people, I think we can all agree on that.

So the choice becomes, do we want to get "home studio" monitors, which are half decent speakers in the $200-400/pair range, or do we want to try something else.

The problem, IMO, is these budget "home studio" monitors don't really fall on either side of the spectrum. They're not very flat or accurate (though, more than the average home stereo speaker, for sure). On the other hand, and this is probably obvious but I'll state it anyway, they're not a good representation of the average person's home listening environment.

When I mix, anyway, I try and mix for the home environment. The studio I mix at may have Tannoy 600's, Urei 809s, Genelec 1031's, 1032s, Mackie HR824s, Adam P22s, etc. And I think these speakers are great for critical listening (such as what you need to get surgical with an EQ). They're also great for imaging. The 'splay' of Urei's beryllium tweeters, or the shimmer of a ribbon tweeter (as you have on the Adam's), is absolutely unmatched. I even had a chance to demo some new Genelecs (the ones with solid aluminum casing) - WOW!

But if your mix sounds great on the above list of awesome speakers, does that mean it will sound great in your average vehicle on the OEM stereo system?

I think not. And I've seen many engineers forget about this after 8-9 hours of mixing (bad idea to begin with, I agree). They think they've got this great mix, and they nearly flip a U-turn on the way home it sounds so bad in the car.

So, when I mix (and I can't say I always follow my own rules), I keep an open mind. If it sounds good on one set of speakers, I have to remember, thats only one set. How is it going to sound on TV? Or, for that matter, in mono?

Typically, I'll start my mix on NS-10s - the most popular studio speakers on the planet, which are ANYTHING but flat - I think this picture is about right:
http://www.tangible-technology.com/m...10cmp_w150.jpg

After I get a good balance, I'll solo various things up, and check them on some more accurate speakers. Maybe that vocal has an annoying frequency in it, or there's some mic stand ring in the room mic.

Anyway, you've got to use both kinds of speakers to get a good mix. Maybe there are some engineers out there so used to monitoring on P22s or something, that they already know what needs to be done to make a mix 'home-ready'. I wish that were me, but it isn't.

So, back on topic, if you can't afford the big guns, go small! Lots of studios will have 'low-end' speakers available for this purpose alone - referencing your mix to a more realistic home-like environment.

Regardless of where you decide to get your monitors from, in the grand spectrum of monitoring options, give them a long listen every day for a while, with material you've already listened to a thousand times. The more you hear your new speakers with stuff you already know, the better and more accurate you'll be able to mix.

If I came off as stupid before, I hope this clears things up. I guess I just don't like that 'middle ground' thing .

Does that help?

[kilowatt]

Reading your post again, "* 2x Tanney Reveal Active" isn't a bad choice at all. I had a session with a pair of these (only they weren't active, but I'm pretty sure its the same speaker otherwise), and some other system - I think they were Halflers - and the tannoy's were nice, not too fatiguing, and they had a lot of punch for their size.

[notbradsohner]

i think im going to be sick!!!

[Blue Bear Sound]

Originally Posted by kilowatt

When I mix, anyway, I try and mix for the home environment. The studio I mix at may have Tannoy 600's, Urei 809s, Genelec 1031's, 1032s, Mackie HR824s, Adam P22s, etc. And I think these speakers are great for critical listening (such as what you need to get surgical with an EQ). They're also great for imaging. The 'splay' of Urei's beryllium tweeters, or the shimmer of a ribbon tweeter (as you have on the Adam's), is absolutely unmatched. I even had a chance to demo some new Genelecs (the ones with solid aluminum casing) - WOW!

But if your mix sounds great on the above list of awesome speakers, does that mean it will sound great in your average vehicle on the OEM stereo system?

It'd better... when you're mixing, that's your job!!!

The truth is, you can use ANY monitor for mixing - once you learn how to translate mixes on them. The "learning to tranlsate mixes" is the key -- this can either be extremely difficult (if you have a bad room and use monitors that don't tell you the whole story), or very easy (if you have a good room and monitors that tell you the whole story very well!)

Great monitors in a bad room will sound bad...
Poor monitors in a bad room will sound like shit...

Using your rationale, seems like you endorse people hearing shit!

Taming some of the room reflections will help considerably, and it isn't that expensive -- and there are also relatively inexpensive methods of bass-trapping as well, so first thing is it doesn't have to be very expensive to help tame a bad room....

The other point is that if the monitors are not telling the whole story, then you have to "make up" the bits that aren't being revealed -- which generally makes the job of mixing that much harder since you have to guess at what people are hearing.

The real key is learning to translate whatever monitors you are working with -- good monitors make it easy, poor monitors (such as NS-10s!) make it more difficult. Where any one person falls within that scale is up to them and how much "poor sound" they can tolerate/work with.

Originally Posted by kilowatt

When I mix, anyway, I try and mix for the home environment.

I don't understand the point of mixing for a particular environment (unless it's for a specific media by contract). The definition of a good mix IS one that sounds good everywhere it's played (within the constraints of the playback environment - you can't expect extended bass from a clock radio!)

A good mix is generally a well-balanced mix, meaning the audio spectrum is well-represented across the entire frequency range.

Originally Posted by kilowatt

Typically, I'll start my mix on NS-10s - the most popular studio speakers on the planet, which are ANYTHING but flat...

After I get a good balance, I'll solo various things up, and check them on some more accurate speakers. Maybe that vocal has an annoying frequency in it, or there's some mic stand ring in the room mic.

Anyway, you've got to use both kinds of speakers to get a good mix.

You've just contradicted your previous point -- you use more than one pair of speakers yourself, so how can you suggest to others that a cheap, small pair of boxes geared for the home market is "good enough???"

Originally Posted by kilowatt

Maybe there are some engineers out there so used to monitoring on P22s or something, that they already know what needs to be done to make a mix 'home-ready'. I wish that were me, but it isn't.

Like I said earlier, there's no such thing as "home-ready", a mix is either well-balanced and translates, or it doesn't... if it doesn't, then the mix isn't finished! Incidently, I use Adam S2-As as my primary monitors, and B&W 601s as my secondary reference.

Originally Posted by kilowatt

If I came off as stupid before, I hope this clears things up. I guess I just don't like that 'middle ground' thing .

Does that help?

Sort of -- I don't totally disagree with your post, in some ways, we're saying the same things, only we're saying them differently..............

Originally Posted by kilowatt

So, back on topic, if you can't afford the big guns, go small! Lots of studios will have 'low-end' speakers available for this purpose alone - referencing your mix to a more realistic home-like environment.

This point is the specific area I disagree with you about......

Originally Posted by kilowatt

Regardless of where you decide to get your monitors from, in the grand spectrum of monitoring options, give them a long listen every day for a while, with material you've already listened to a thousand times. The more you hear your new speakers with stuff you already know, the better and more accurate you'll be able to mix.

This is the part about learning to translate your mixes -- I agree with you......

[Fakesky]

Thanks for the suggestions everyone!

apl:
Ok cool. I´ll do it both ways if I find that I need to.. otherwise
it seems it would work fine.

PiRequiem
I checked, and this great musicstore nearby, with a generous return policy,
has both the SM mics and the Studio Projects B1.
I´ll try both.

kilowatt

"..analog mixing console.."
I do have a mixer, come to think of it. I would avoid using it if I can though;
but then again, it might be useful in the sense you described it.
I´ll see if it taints the signal quality in any way, otherwise I guess it would be valuable. Might as well use it since I have it hehe

"Remember, the Delta 1010 is either +4, or -10, and does NOT have mic preamps."

On M-Audio´s webpage:
"Two inputs even have mic/line preamps on XLR connectors, saving the expense of outboard preamps."

The latter seems to negate the former; or am I wrong?
Or is there something wrong with the mic preamps, to justify
the ignoring them?

Also, I think Im pretty final on getting the Tanney monitors;
they seem really nice.