Should I cut out the Mackie?

[onesidered]

I have been using the MOTU 828mkII with DP4 to record songs for the last 8+ months. Just recently I submitted a song in the MP3 Mixing Clinic called "One Man Band, Please Listen..." I got a comment that my song has a muffled sound to it. Now that I listen to it, I realize that it does sound a bit muffled. I am currently running a 16 channel snake into a mackie 16 channel mixer, then out from there into the MOTU.

My question: Should I cut the Mackie out the the chain all together? Will doing that take away the "muffled" sound?

Please check out the song, and help if you can.

Thanx,

[Blue Bear Sound]

Best practices dictates "minimal signal chain ALWAYS" for optimal results.

If it doesn't need to be there, take it out completely..........

[Ronan]

I believe that your MOTU box only has two mic inputs which is a serious consideration.

I would keep the mackie. I am not going to say that Mackies are as good as other more expensive things on the market, but they are OK. Hell, I have done major lable work on an old mackie in the past.

I would also keep the mackie for mixing instead of mixing inside of DP4. The sound of your tracks summing in the Mackie will be better than the sound of summing in the computer. I did not hear the track you posted, but if your mix is muffled it may just need some mastering, or more likely not mixed right. A mackie mixer will not muffle a track to the point where you would notice it on an MP3

[onesidered]

Thank you for the feedback. My MOTU has 8 1/4 inch inputs.

[fretmeister]

Originally Posted by Ronan

I would also keep the mackie for mixing instead of mixing inside of DP4. The sound of your tracks summing in the Mackie will be better than the sound of summing in the computer.

I've seen this "summing" issue mentioned before. Is this a known fact, something everyone would agree with?

[Blue Bear Sound]

Originally Posted by fretmeister

I've seen this "summing" issue mentioned before. Is this a known fact, something everyone would agree with?

Personally, I prefer mixing outside the DAW, and find I get better-quality mixes via the console, but as is often the case in audio, YMMV!!

[ChuckU]

What's the point of a DAW if you're not going to mix inside it? Automation, plug-ins, etc make it too tempting. I suppose you could still automate your individual tracks and put plugins on same then route from your converters to the mixer. I could do this too, but I'd need to reroute everything

The paradigm for my setup: All signals thru Mackie 32/8-bus > out the inserts into 2 Delta 1010's > into Sonar >automated with StudioMix Control surface, is basically a poor man's version of a friend's Pro-tools setup as he has a Neotek board (and a zillion top of the line pres) going into the PT converters into the software and automated with a Pro-Control. He does a lot of Label work, and I know my signal chain is not close to his but...I still think shortcomings of my mixes lie with me.

[Blue Bear Sound]

Originally Posted by ChuckU

What's the point of a DAW if you're not going to mix inside it? Automation, plug-ins, etc make it too tempting. I suppose you could still automate your individual tracks and put plugins on same then route from your converters to the mixer. I could do this too, but I'd need to reroute everything

I use the DAW primarily for editing and CD architecture... tracks from the HD24 go to the DAW (via Fireport) - I'll do any editing/comp'ing/etc... then the tracks go back to the HD24 for mixing.....

[Cloneboy Studio]

Originally Posted by Blue Bear Sound

Best practices dictates "minimal signal chain ALWAYS" for optimal results.

If it doesn't need to be there, take it out completely..........

Or buy a mixer that has to be there.

[Blue Bear Sound]

Originally Posted by Cloneboy Studio

Or buy a mixer that has to be there.

Well yes - if you're using a board's pres, the mixer has to be there...... if you're using high-quality outboard pres, you still would bypass the console, even if it were an SSL!

[Raw-Tracks]

I tend to think there are other factors causing your sound to be "muffled". Technique being one of them, microphones being another. As someone mentioned previously, you probably need the Mackie for extra mic preamps. That's OK. The Mackie is not that bad. I think you should try to evaluate your situation a little deeper. Is there a certain aspect of your production that sounds muffled? Is it just the vocal, for instance, or is it the entire mix. It could be a build up of mud in the low frequencies causing the muffled feel.

[Ronan]

Originally Posted by fretmeister

I've seen this "summing" issue mentioned before. Is this a known fact, something everyone would agree with?

well every one would not agree, especially the folks at digidesign who make a lot of money selling people that idea that mixing in the box is as good as or better than analog summing, but among serious pro mix engineers (myself included) the concensus is that external summing sounds much better. Summing in the box tends to collapse the imaging of a mix. The stereo image narrows and your mix will sound less deep with internal summing. I NEVER sum in the box and would rather sum with a mackie than in the box. There is a company called Dangerous Music that makes a box that is nothing but an analog summing mixer just for this reason. Summing is one of the biggest audio weakness of DAWs.

I am sure that there are guys on this site that sum in the box and think its great, and that is totally cool for them, but if you ask guys with a lot of experience with analog and digital summing it is "almost" unanimous that analog is superior

[fretmeister]

You could still do all of your automation, etc. on the computer, but use the mixer for the actually summing and bounce to a stereo track. I'm going to try it if I can figure out how to do it. My main complaint with my mixes is that they don't seem to have depth and, for lack of a better description, air. In a really good mix, I can hear the empty spaces, and I can't hear them in mine.

[mixsit]

Originally Posted by Raw-Tracks

I tend to think there are other factors causing your sound to be "muffled". Technique being one of them, microphones being another..

Best guess (and that's all it is), ditto here. I don't see mackie's as being all that far off in that respect.
Wayne

[Ronan]

Originally Posted by fretmeister

You could still do all of your automation, etc. on the computer, but use the mixer for the actually summing and bounce to a stereo track. I'm going to try it if I can figure out how to do it. My main complaint with my mixes is that they don't seem to have depth and, for lack of a better description, air. In a really good mix, I can hear the empty spaces, and I can't hear them in mine.

This is a really good way to mix. Some people like to keep all the faders at zero and do all the levels in the box, but I mix with the faders and use the PT automation to do small things like dip or raise a vox at a certains spot or tame down a loud drum hit.

One thing that people do not realize is that when you change the level of a digital audio track only .1dB the sound degrades. If you don't believe me try it with a finished mix. If you have really good monitors you should hear the difference.

Also I just love the feel of using real faders.

[Cloneboy Studio]

Originally Posted by Blue Bear Sound

Well yes - if you're using a board's pres, the mixer has to be there...... if you're using high-quality outboard pres, you still would bypass the console, even if it were an SSL!

This may sound stupid, but I hate bypassing the mixer... those high end preamps always sound funny to me... way too crunchy.

Just give me a decent analog console and I'm fine. Fancy preamps aren't really my thing.

[Blue Bear Sound]

Originally Posted by Cloneboy Studio

This may sound stupid, but I hate bypassing the mixer... those high end preamps always sound funny to me... way too crunchy.

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[NL5]

Originally Posted by Blue Bear Sound

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I second that?????????

[Track Rat]

Originally Posted by Ronan

I mix with the faders and use the PT automation to do small things like dip or raise a vox at a certains spot or tame down a loud drum hit.

Also I just love the feel of using real faders.

That is exactly how I operate. It's not that I love the faders (I do but that's neither here nor there), it just sounds so much (forgive me) fatter. I would love the infinate repeatability of mixing in the box, it just don't sound as good.

[mixsit]

Depending on the Mackie, there my not be dedicated tape returns, in which case it would be going through the pre-amps again -not that that is necessarily the issue here.

[onesidered]

The mackie that I use is the 1604VLZ. I have had it for a while. Maybe someone could tell me how to route it to get best sound quality?

Thanx,