Any good success stories ($)?

[mrx]

A while back I asked if anyone here was making money from writing and, as I recall, the most successful person was hoping to recoup a Taxi membership.

Anyone finding financial success (Nashville, CD Baby, CD's at gigs, video game sountracks, etc.)?

[Aaron Cheney]

I'm making enough off teaching songwriting classes, selling copies of my book, and selling my CD's to pay for my music habit. I don't know if that's success or not...

A

[mrx]

Hey Aaron,

Making a living from music is success by my definition! Seems like the happiest people I know are guys who have figured out a way to make that happen - even if means hosting the occasional open mic.

How are you selling your CD's - at gigs, just through the web?

[Aaron Cheney]

Originally Posted by mrx

Hey Aaron,

Making a living from music...

Hold on... I only said I was making enough to support my habit. That is... enough to buy musical toys, make another CD, or go to a concert now and then. Now as far as paying rent goes... that's where my wife comes in!

(And my day job...)

[Aaron Cheney]

Ohh... as far as selling CD goes, most of my product sales are generated through the lessons I give. When I teach a songwriting class I sell my book. I teach guitar lessons and lots of students buy my CD's. That type of stuff. I haven't played in a band since my kids were born ( 15 and 12 now). I'm really starting to get the itch though.

[mikeh]

I may have been the person who previously posted about making enough to pay for a Taxi membership. In the last 3 years I've had about $400 come in (a $20 check here and a $7 check there, etc). In my entire life I doubt that I've made more than $3,000 - $4,000 from writing and most of that was years ago when it was much easier to place songs (and likely much less competition).

In the almost 40 years that I've been a working musician I've met a few thousand musician's - some were good writers, a couple were very fine writers but not a one could support themselves solely by writing. Many earned a lining with a combination of gigs, teaching, etc - but not what most would consider a "comfortable living". While I realize there are some very wealthy musician/writers it certainly ain't the norn.

I was a full time road muscian for 7 years and have gigged semi-pro for many years. Like Aaron I earn enough to pay for what ever gear I buy (and like everyone on this site, that is probably way too much gear).

We write because we love the process (and the ego stroke when someone compliments our efforts) but to hope for commerical success is a dream but for a select few. Be the best writer you can be, that is it's own reward.

While I agree with mrx that supporting oneself through music is true success, I know very few "full time" musicians who are all that happy. Beyond the fact that any true artist will always doubt their own worth as an artist, music is not a very solid income source. Gigs come and go, people leave bands which causes setbacks, you often have to work with and depend on people who's ego often far surpases their talent and at the end of the day you barely earn enough to survive, let alone provide a decent standard of living for a family.

Beig a full time musician may be very cool at 20, but it get's much harder as you get older, and unless you have something else to fall back on (like an education) it can be a dead end career. (Man, I just realized I sound like someone's dad

[mrx]

Originally Posted by mikeh

...at the end of the day you barely earn enough to survive, let alone provide a decent standard of living for a family.

Beig a full time musician may be very cool at 20, but it get's much harder as you get older, and unless you have something else to fall back on (like an education) it can be a dead end career. (Man, I just realized I sound like someone's dad

mikeh -

I recall my parents making the same arguments 20+ years ago. Back then there really was no such thing as do-it-yourself - reminds me of a Chicago band called 'Off Broadway' that was all over local radio, but couldn't make a dent nationally. They sold 80K copies of one album in Chicago, and maybe another 20K total in the rest of the country - of course it was a 'major label', so they were dropped as a flop. Today they would just run their own label, make a nice living off local sales and gigs, and try to do a 'Dave Mathews' by taking over one region at a time on their own terms.

The guys I see now making a 'living' at this are typically middle aged and without kids to support - solo or duo singer/songwriters selling CD's at gigs, driving themselves to places that will pay a few hundred bucks and allow original music.

I guess I keep holding out hope that there's someone up here who is flying under the radar, placing album tracks on Mongomery Gentry albums, or something. For all the Taxi 'A&R Panel' blurbs about looking for a tune that rates a perfect '10', I'm begining to doubt even that would matter. If some nobody on this forum posted a song like 'I Hope You Dance' (or any other 'moster song of the year'), would they get a call?

[mikeh]

mrx,

I agree that the guys I know who are making a fair living are doing solo act's or duo acts (normally with some sequenced backing tracks, etc). You hit it right on the head, they drive to gigs within 1-4 hours (so they can drive home and avoid lodging costs). They maybe book 3-4 gigs a week at $150 -$200 a pop and maybe host an open mic night (on an off night) for another $75. They sell some CD's from stage and maybe work in a music store or do local session work to supplement the gigs.

While they may do a fair amount or original material, they will always have to do mainly cover material.

I know a couple of guys that manage to make maybe $30,000 - $40,000 a year, but expenses (gas, vehicle maintenance, etc) eat into that. By the time they pay rent, buy food, etc. etc. there is little left for insurance, savings, etc.

To survive, you need to have several sources of income (cause clubs come and go, etc). While I envy the fact that these guys actually make a living as musicians I wonder how long they can keep it up. I know they often think they would like to have a more "dependable way" to earn a living, but this is all they know how to do. And yes, they are middle aged with no families to support.

That all being said, what a sad world it would be if artists/musicians etc were not willing to sacrifice for their art. Maybe those who suffer for the beauty of their art in this life will be rewarded in another life!

I just remember when I was a 20 year old full time musician (sleeping in the truck or crashing on floors to save a buck) and I saw guys who were 30-40 years old living that way - I thought, man I don't wanna be living like this when I'm 40!

[mrx]

Originally Posted by mikeh

... but expenses (gas, vehicle maintenance, etc) eat into that.

That all being said, what a sad world it would be if artists/musicians etc were not willing to sacrifice for their art. Maybe those who suffer for the beauty of their art in this life will be rewarded in another life!

I just remember when I was a 20 year old full time musician (sleeping in the truck or crashing on floors to save a buck) and I saw guys who were 30-40 years old living that way - I thought, man I don't wanna be living like this when I'm 40!

mikeh,

So true about the car, etc. - last time I saw one of these guys he was complaining how his car broke down out of town and was at the mercy of the first mechanic he could find. Got a bad repair job and had to turn around and go back. He missed his last scheduled gig, so maybe the car finally did him in.

Hope you're right about these guys getting their due - one guy who was living that life (and was so supportive of other musicians - even jerks like yours truly) had finally gotten settled with a place to live on the beach and a decent vehicle, only to find out he had a month to live.

In my case I had dropped out of college (using the logic that with nothing to 'fall back on', I'd be more motivated to achieve musical success...) and was driving a delivery van for the father of a guy whose band I was in. I remember some 40-ish truck driver delivering boxes talking about how 'guys like us' needed to stick together against these 'educated types' - same thought as you - 'I'm NOT ending up like that!'

Still, there has to be hope - wasn't Dwight Yoakam's last single written by the brother of a stage hand on his last movie set?

[Garry Sharp]

Hmmm....just a related thought. I used to LOVE aviation - as much as I do music now. Then I became sort of "semi pro" - flew in a formation aerobatic display team, did shows across Europe etc. Lasted seven years before they kicked me out because I had clearly lost interest. Haven't flown since, license lapsed, don't care. All because I had to do the same thing over and over again, when the team/commercial schedule demanded, whether I felt like it or not.

As a result I have NO commercial aspirations for music. Not that I have anywhere near enough talent anyway, but that flying experience was such an eye opener. Everybody else's mileage will vary, of course - just my 2 pennies.

Cheers

Garry

[philboyd studge]

Originally Posted by mikeh

mrx,

I agree that the guys I know who are making a fair living are doing solo act's or duo acts (normally with some sequenced backing tracks, etc). You hit it right on the head, they drive to gigs within 1-4 hours (so they can drive home and avoid lodging costs). They maybe book 3-4 gigs a week at $150 -$200 a pop and maybe host an open mic night (on an off night) for another $75. They sell some CD's from stage and maybe work in a music store or do local session work to supplement the gigs.

While they may do a fair amount or original material, they will always have to do mainly cover material.

I know a couple of guys that manage to make maybe $30,000 - $40,000 a year, but expenses (gas, vehicle maintenance, etc) eat into that. By the time they pay rent, buy food, etc. etc. there is little left for insurance, savings, etc.

To survive, you need to have several sources of income (cause clubs come and go, etc). While I envy the fact that these guys actually make a living as musicians I wonder how long they can keep it up. I know they often think they would like to have a more "dependable way" to earn a living, but this is all they know how to do. And yes, they are middle aged with no families to support.

That all being said, what a sad world it would be if artists/musicians etc were not willing to sacrifice for their art. Maybe those who suffer for the beauty of their art in this life will be rewarded in another life!

I just remember when I was a 20 year old full time musician (sleeping in the truck or crashing on floors to save a buck) and I saw guys who were 30-40 years old living that way - I thought, man I don't wanna be living like this when I'm 40!

Geez, that sounds awful.

I don't know, since the late '60's I've never done anything but music, that is performing or writing. Never lessons or working in music stores, etc. It isn't easy and I wouldn't reccomend it, but it can be done, and you can live a somewhat normal middle class life.

After ignoring it for some 10 or 12 years I've turned back to songwriting after finding a unique niche in which to operate, incoporate a separate hobby I've had for some time, and totally own the product. My plan is for my songs through performance and sales to provide around 70% of my income within the next year, up from the 15% or so it is currently which comes from shlock original instrumentals I sell at gigs and royalties from old songs I've written.

So buck up, it can be done, but it takes a work ethic most people are not willing to adhere to, especially musicians. However, I couldn't imagine trying to write and promote songs in any mainstream market I know of sucessfully.

[Aaron Cheney]

Well... call me philosophical or whipped or whatever. I have some heroes that have managed to cobble together livings as artists of one ilk or another. None have kids, and most have no wives either, through choice or divorce (mostly divorce). Some of my biggest heroes, however, are those that were willing to let go of their dreams for someone else's sake (raising me, for instance). It's not so much about money though... even the poorest Amercians have more then they need. It's more about time.
I've not let go of my dream to make a living making music, but it's been on hiatus for the last 15 years. I wanted to give my kids a fighting chance in this world, and a day job with a stable schedule became paramount. There is nothing kids need more than your time. Meanwhile, I've focused all my energy on writing songs becuase it's something I can do at home in my spare time. In another 6 or 7 years my kids will be gone, my wife and I will be in our mid 40's, and we'll see what happens. I don't mind being poor again with just my wife. We've done it before and we can do it again.
Until then I'll keep writing songs, teaching, and doing the best I can with the time I have.

[lykwydchykyn]

I made about 2 grand last year in royalties. That was a lucky break, really. To me the hardest part isn't doing the work, it's finding the work. I've always had trouble connecting with people personally and making myself memorable. That's what gets gigs.
Then you get into the trap of finding a full time job to support your family, and you have no time to develop a career. That's the trap I'm in now.
I guess this isn't much of a success story...

[mrx]

Originally Posted by philboyd studge

I don't know, since the late '60's I've never done anything but music, that is performing or writing. Never lessons or working in music stores, etc. It isn't easy and I wouldn't reccomend it, but it can be done, and you can live a somewhat normal middle class life.

philboyd - can you elaborate on what you've been doing? With 30+ years of music-related income, it sounds like you could write a book!

[philboyd studge]

Originally Posted by mrx

philboyd - can you elaborate on what you've been doing? With 30+ years of music-related income, it sounds like you could write a book!

Actually, that's what I'm doing. Booklets to be exact.

About 12 years ago, since I was on the road a lot, I started going to the state historical landmarks in California, thinking it would be a unique hobby and it would break up some of the boredom of travel. It became an obsession and I wanted to go to every one. Actually I've been to over 700 of the 1100 in the state.

Lately, I realized there's some pretty interesting stories in that database and now, a year later, I'm finishing my fourth project/album (about 50 songs total). Originally I intended them to be just cd's with a little web support but the booklet (a lot of extra work) format sells better, and makes far more money and opens up the possibility of bookstores, gift shops, visitor centers, museums and the like in addition to performances for historical groups, libraries, schools, and bookstores again to name a few. None of this would exist without the songs, which I feel have to stand on their own. The best thing is that there's no time limit on this material, it'll be the same 20 years from now.

[mrx]

Great idea - are you using original music, or redoing period pieces? Billy Corgan (Smashing Pumpkins) just wrote and performed a series of pieces about the history of Chicago, one of which is now part of an exhibit at the Historical Society.

[philboyd studge]

Originally Posted by mrx

Great idea - are you using original music, or redoing period pieces? Billy Corgan (Smashing Pumpkins) just wrote and performed a series of pieces about the history of Chicago, one of which is now part of an exhibit at the Historical Society.

No, it's all original. As an example of the hoops one has to jump through, here's an example for one project as it relates to getting into schools:

California Educators

This material conforms to the history-social science framework for California public schools and brings to life insightful and interesting stories in a musical presentation of historical accounts in the Coachella Valley.

To each setting, time and place are established and accounts of individuals are depicted in the manner in which they saw themselves. Interesting details of the period or event, and an individual’s hopes, fears, and dreams are among the tools used to make the stories within the songs engaging. From the CD, the listener will be taken to that time and place from a human interest standpoint with music performed on folk and roots instruments common to period such as guitar, banjo, mandolin, mandocello, dulcimer, and autoharp.

This material also applies to the frameworks of visual and performance arts with the primary educational impact area being the historical and cultural content combined with the creative expression of original work and the aesthetic valuing of the transfer of historical data from a performance arts source. By combining the elements of music and history, my goal is to engage the imagination of the listener in a new and exciting fashion.

The songs as they relate to content standards of history-social studies framework for California public schools:
1. Desert Submarines - conforms to standard 3.3.3.
2. Indio Station - conforms to standards 4.4.1, and 4.4.4
3. With These Wings – conforms to standards, 3.3.1, and 4.4.6
4. Palmdale - conforms to standards 4.4.3, and 4.4.4
5. La Quinta Hotel - conforms to standard 4.4.4
6. Training Center Boogie - conforms to standards 3.4.3, and 4.4.5
7. Cahuilla - conforms to standards 3.2.2, 3.2.4, 3.4.3, and 4.2.1
8. Centerline - conforms to 3.3.1, and 4.4.6
9. Judge McCallum - conforms to standard 3.3.3
10. Dr. Carreon - conforms to standard 3.3.1
11. Moonlight Motor Inn - conforms to standards 3.3.3, and 4.4.4
12. Cabot Yerxa – conforms to standard 3.3.3, 4.4.4
13. All American Canal - conforms to standard 4.4.6, and 4.4.7

[fabkebab1]

philboyd studge - totally excellent: inventive and probably something I would buy if I ever saw it in a gift shop at one of those parks. Did I say excellent? yep ok I did.

[philboyd studge]

Originally Posted by fabkebab1

philboyd studge - totally excellent: inventive and probably something I would buy if I ever saw it in a gift shop at one of those parks. Did I say excellent? yep ok I did.

Thanks. This historical music may well be a little gold mine niche market for me. My first inclination was to have a booklet/cd format but I had a few retailers say that they could only sell one or the other but not both, so I was going to go with just cd's and web support. Later, at a museum concert I offered both and they went with the booklets 10 to 1.....I was selling the cd's for $10 and the booklet/cd's for 20. Using my wife's former place of employment at a business center my unit cost for short runs is under $4, so there's a lot of profit left over. Wholesale to a merchant is $12.50, and if I can get the likes of Borders Books interested I'll get them done by a printer.

Back to songwriting. I think it's a good idea to write often about the things that interest you and you have a passion for, and develop those into songs, whatever the subject might be. Getting money for songwriting is elusive but not impossible.

[protein]

Originally Posted by mrx

A while back I asked if anyone here was making money from writing and, as I recall, the most successful person was hoping to recoup a Taxi membership.

Anyone finding financial success (Nashville, CD Baby, CD's at gigs, video game sountracks, etc.)?

I wrote/produced a track for a feature film and a track for an advert starring Jennifer Aniston. Those two have paid for a new studio set up, a few mics, a holiday to Thailand and paid off a few debts.

Apart from that the money comes from recording rather than writing - although I have a few writing projects in the pipeline.

[jonnyboy]

protein.......how did you get your song into a movie? Were you contacted thru ur website? I've got loads of good original songs but don't know what to do with them..I'd be interested to hear your advice...

[Imaduck]

One time I made about 14 bucks from a show I hosted.

Yes, I'm living the big life.

[protein]

Originally Posted by jonnyboy

protein.......how did you get your song into a movie? Were you contacted thru ur website? I've got loads of good original songs but don't know what to do with them..I'd be interested to hear your advice...

I uploaded a few dance tunes to a publisher (www.raw42.com). They knew I was a multi-instrumentalist so they asked me to write a Radiohead soundalike for a brief they got from a film company so i did and the film company liked it and it was used in the film. Same with the Barclaycard advert. I've had loads that haven't ever make it though. I've been extremely lucky so far.

I'm now doing a&r in the "experimantal electronica" department for them.

They are always looking for music so have a look at what they do on their website and if you have some songs that you think would work with moving pictures then upload them. It can't hurt.

Lyric-wise they are always after uplifting yet non-descript stuff. Think - "I'm gonna fly" or "moving up" or "the sun is shining" or "Happy, happy, joy, joy" rather than "well since my baby left me..."

[jonnyboy]

Protein...thanks for the success story, mate....I've checked the site out looks good....as soon as I get some of my songs into mp3 format on my computer, I'll upload...cheers for that. Do you know any other similar sites that accept songs.....I think for me, this is the way forward....being 35 and in full-time employment...in fact my only option, time being a problem...I wish I did have time to trapse around the companies...

What is the music scene like in the UK at the moment..I've been out of it for so long now, in Japan where I'm living now...basically the so called 'Jpop' scene is reminiscent of the UK scene in the early 80s....and in fact, so many stolen melodies, riffs..it's quite unbelievable...even the clothes are similar!!

anyway, any information would be great...and good luck with the next 'moneymaker'..btw...does it get easier once you've had your first success??

cheers - Jonny_boy

PS How was the Thai holiday...was over there myself last year...did you get to the islands??...I've got a Japanese friend working over there at the moment teaching...she says that the humidity is just unbearable!!....

[Jagular]

I am officially an ASCAP member as of a couple days ago, so the big bucks ought to be rolling in any time now.