Legal Issues

[Slackmaster2K]

I'd like some feedback here.

1st - everyone should legally copyright their music. It's cheap and you can download the forms off the net (see the Marketing forum). We'll stick a copyright notice by each person's song regardless.

2nd - people submitting the music of other musicians should get written permission from those people. I have no idea how to handle this. I'd be willing to draft a legal-sounding blanket letter, but I won't guarantee its correctness.

3rd - everyone is going to have to sign SOMETHING that states that we can duplicate and distribute their song(s) for the purpose of this CD and this CD only. Again I don't know what to do. Plus there's the issue that several people could be burning these disks...maybe we could say that each of us has permission to make copies of the disk...but hmmm....i dunno. I'll try to watch more Judge Judy.

4th - who's going to hold all of these letters? Dragon? His name is at stake more than anyone. What about notorization? Necessary?

5th - sales. In the extreme event that we actual make a profit from this (unlikely), where should the money go? I know that I won't be waiting by the mailbox for my $0.35 check. Give it to Dragon for the BBS? This also raises the royalty issue. We'd have to sign off that the individual musicians don't expect to be paid royalties...unless you want royalties...help me out here.

6th - Time. How long will we allow this CD to be burned? When I hit the big time 10 years from now I don't want you guys making a fortune off of my song Seriously though, these are all issues that we should consider so nobody gets bitten.

Help! To those who have done something like this before, how was it handled?

Slackmaster 2000

[Jon X]

These are all important issues Slackmaster2k, and I agree they should be figured out before we even start sending songs in. Good idea to bring it all up now. I was planning to copyright my song, once I have written and recorded it. Which reminds me, I gotta get to it. I think copyrighting is a good idea for everyone on the disc. I also think all profits should go to Dragon for the BBS. None of us would EVER have ended up on the same CD if not for Dragon setting up this site and BBS. I personally can't wait to here the diversity that's going to be on the disc. I would suggest we all keep the rights to our music, roylaties or otherwise. If someone halfway around the world somehow gets hold of this disc, and for some strange reason wants to use my song as background music for some French movie 10 years from now, I want the credit and the money. Don't laugh, I know a guy that happened to and he got close to $20,000 US in checks from that one thing over a two year period. Ok, it is funny, and unlikely to happen. I laughed when he told me, but still $20k is a lot of money, and being in the credits to something like that would be a good story to tell.

[This message has been edited by Jon X (edited 01-05-2000).]

[dmcsilva]

Not that anything I create will ever turn a profit, but in the case that it does, I would like to see the profits from it. But, I would also like to give back to the community. I am sure there is some way I could contribute whatever is my portion of a profit that may be generated from the .comp back to HomeRecording.com and Dragon, while still retaining the sole rights to my music distributed in any other form. I think with such an agreement everyone wins (if there is anything to be won).

Think about soundtracks. There is definitely a way to do this. Many bands have the same song on both a soundtrack and their own cd. You KNOW that those compiling the soundtrack have no rights whatsoever to any profit from that song unless it is on the soundtrack or in the movie.

The tough part is finding the correct legalese to make sure everyone benefits and no one gets screwed.

dmc

[drstawl]

I'm not a lawyer; I don't even play one on TV. But here's my two cents.
I'm thinking that a simple copyright notification on each track, citing the copyright holder should cover it globally, while each contributor covers their own butt by actually copyrighting the piece(s) in question. That'll keep it simple for the purposes of the compilation. In addition I'd like to believe that any funds that come from sales of the compilation cover actual production costs (my OPINION of what these are is: cost of each one as per a bulk duplication contract agreed upon by a majority of the contributors) with the remainder donated to homerecording.com.

[crazyhorse]

Don't worry about me. If I get on the CD I'll be happy enough. Dragon can have my profits for a nice, long vacation. Somewhere with no electricity I think.

[CMiller]

I think Doc has it right. If we're copyrighting each individual recording on our own, we should be protected from any conflicts. There is no reason why we can't put a couple lines of contact info per person just in case. Such as...

Shaking Hands With Mr. Lincoln (3:45)
written and performed by Phil McCracken
copyright 1997 Slandermonkey Music
contact info: 325 Backdoor Ave Funkytown, LA 23486 (123) 456-7890

We could also have a blanket disclaimer like:

All songs appear courtesy of the performing artists. All rights unless otherwise noted are held by the individual artists and may not be transfered without express written consent.

That little paragraph does nothing more than inform an interested party that they have to contact the artist himself. Your rights are actually guaranteed by the individual copyright you obtain for your music, not the comp.

If anyone out there has any legal experience (outside of getting arrested) tell me if I'm right here.

[Slackmaster2K]

That's the part I'm not so worried about. I think you've got it right. I like the blanket disclaimer...seems logical.

What I am worried about are issues like how many CD's are we going to allow ourselves to burn, who gets to burn them, over what time period, who gets royalties (if any), who writes up these contracts, who signs them, and who holds them? Yikes.

As I said in the last update, however, there is an attorney in our group who might be able to help us out. Don't have anything concrete worked out yet though...but it would sure be nice to have a professional opinion.

Oh, one more thing...if you copyright under some cool label name, make sure you register the name. I'm not sure if it's as simple as registering the name in the same manner you'd register a business name (with the state and/or federal government)....which is a very simple process and something that I did several years ago for different reasons. In all other cases I think you should put your full name in the copyright notice.

Strange, protecting ourselves from the public is a rather simple process.... protecting us from ourselves is where it gets tricky!

Slackmaster 2000

[Dragon]

S2K, Jon X and CMiller stated it very concisely...about the only way I'd be happy with it myself. Everybody has to keep rights to their own music. I can't imagine it any other way.

crazyhorse and dmcsilva, you guys are wonderful, and thank you. But I'm determined not to profit unfairly from anyone else's work here. I don't want any donations!

I'll be setting up some kind of...thing here, so the comp CD gets its own ad banner, page, links to all the contributors, etc. Ideally, maybe some kind of secure online ordering so that someone (not me! maybe my wife) can fulfill the orders. All this necessary overhead will cost a certain amount of money, which should be charged to the CD project.

With scaly economics (er, I mean the economies of scale) perhaps we can come up with a way of pricing this that will actually net all the contributors a small but real profit by the end of the year. After all, if the big record companies can do it, why can't we? At least it should be an interesting experience.

[Slackmaster2K]

Ok, I'm pretty bad at explaining myself here I know...

Let's say that I'm the guy who's going to be burning the CD's and sending them out. Because you guys will own the rights to your songs, legally I CAN'T burn and distribute the CDs legally without your written consent...I'd be setting myself up for a potential, though improbible, lawsuite. I am definately not saying that I want anyone to give up the rights to their songs, but perhaps to sign something stating permission to reproduce and distribute for a specified purpose.

But in order for that to happen we need a defined group or organization. Anyone want to start a label?

Dragon...you sure you don't need a donation of at least a portion of any profits? I know that I'd be willing to donate profits to the BBS...and it's not so much a donation as it is an investment in my own music education. The longer this board is around, the smarter I'm bound to become.

Slackmaster 2000

[Dragon]

S2K...and everyone else..you're too much! I love yez all.

The only thing that's a potential problem on this BBS is that the hits and bandwidth are going through the roof. Hopefully the new server and hosting service (which so far has been exemplary) will be able to take it. I just have to get off my fanny and get some money coming in, but that's not a problem at this point anyway. This site wasn't set up as a non-profit organization, it just happens to be non-profit right now! But I didn't do all this to make money either, really.

I have to deal with a lawyer in any case, so I might as well set up a recording label while I'm at it (maybe we can even get a UPC!). And, S2K, I doubt anyone will sue you for sending out CDs that they've asked you to distribute, but rest assured I will get all the details worked out to all the participants' satisfaction in writing before a single dollar or CD goes anywhere.

[bobbo]

I certainly agree with Slackmaster 2000 about the learning part. I can't believe what this site has taught me. I now agree with Dragon too, you can spend a lot of money and be smiling afterwards. The sound quality between songs I recorded 4 months ago and the ones I am doing now almost made me fall over when I heard them the first time. Very fun too, and rewarding as well.
If Dragon might be setting something up for the promotion and selling of the CD, then maybe he and his wife could just come up with a percentage of the earnings (if there happens to be any after paying for the production costs, legal stuff, wages for him and his wife for promoting, selling etc.) and then the contributors get a percentage too. So, first pay for the CD and promotion and selling of it, I think that should include Dragon for promotion of the CD on this site, which would really be cool. Then, whoever is involved in production, promotion, selling and lastly the musical contributors, they could all have a set percentage (that maybe could be agreed on later) if there is a profit of any kind.
I don't know how this kind of stuff works in the real world, but it would be kind of cool to set it up like it is set up out there. Just for learning sakes. I don't think we all could have a world tour (its a fun dream though), but to get some kind of experience in selling, promoting, legal stuff, copywriting, and anything else that pertains to puting our music on a CD and selling it. All we did in the past was make a bunch of tapes and create some artwork and then sell them to people we know. I don't know if anyone would really pay for a song of mine, (I don't think my wife even likes any of my music, the two cats do though, they're always a yippin and a yalpin) but it would be fun to know how its done. Who knows, maybe someone at this site will, and will be better off after watching how this all works out.


[This message has been edited by bobbo (edited 01-07-2000).]

[Recording Engineer]

OK Guys:

Remember there's different types of copyrights, mainly two; PA (performing arts; songwriter gets royalties) and SR (sound recording; performing artists get royalties). PA forms are for the lyrics and basic chord structure and such. SR forms are for the actual recording itself (our CD Compilation).

There's two possible ways to go:

1. We all need to send in lyrics and such along with a PA form, and we all need to send any media copy (CD, cassette, record) in along with an SR forum of our song on our own. This way, you protect both your song and your recording.

Remember, even with SR copyrights, it is still legal to copy a CD as long as there's no profit. Of course, duplication for profit still happens all the time and no one ever knows it. Even when they do, no one really cares until profits become sustancial.

2. (Not really the way to go at all; the performing artists will never go for this). We all do a PA copyright on our own. Then after it's mastered, we do an SR copyright together. But in order to do this option, there must be an "us". We'd have to have our own label with all of us included. Of course, this could be a problem because if one submition recieves radio play, then all "us" would recieved royalties (not the performing artists. Also, if Dragon were to start his own label and his label owned the SR rights, the label would recieve the royalties (not the performing artists).

Then there's the problem of your submition being being on other Compilations, your own album, etc. I know mine has.

Well, I'm not really sure 1. is the way to go either, but it's the best I can think of right now. It's been a few years since I took my music business class.

Hope this helps

[dobro]

bobbo - you're right about the learning process, but if this thing works, there's way more potential here than just an enhanced learning curve. If you're talking about a label, online payment, and a site with loads of hits, then you're talking about a real marketing opportunity for more than just compilations. Of course, to move your own music, you can always set up your own CD presentation and sales on your own website, but how do you get the hits? (Uh...visits to the site, not Top 10 pop jingles, I mean.) See what I'm getting at? (Well, somebody had to say it.)

[Recording Engineer]

Purpose of PA copyright form correction:

A PA form is for the lyrics and melody. You cannot copyright a chord progression. I don't know what the hell I was thinking.

Also, I think 1. would work if the person(s) doing the duplication and profit recieving from the permited duplicated, recieves "expressed written consent"/permission (with permited detail) from those who own the SR rights for each song on the compilation; just to save their own @ss.

[gibs]

Yer rights and payments are monitored by organizations such as BMI, ASCAP, SESAC. F'rinstance, if your song is played on the radio or on a jukebox, or even in a club or a high school that charges admission for tickets, you're entitled to a royality. So, on the off chance the comp cd or one of its parts gets airplay or other forms of performance, it might be wise to check out these performance rights organizations. In other words, if your song gets played on a radio in Alaska, you wouldn't know about it and wouldn't expect a royality, but your organization would know, and collect it for you if you're a member. BMI charges nothing for membership. Ascap does. Not sure about Sesac. Some writers/performers prefer BMI, some ASCAP, some SESAC, all for different reasons unknown to me. Publishers are also members of these organizations....gibs http://www.bmi.com/ http://www.ascap.com/ascap.html http://www.sesac.com/

[Dragon]

Folks, I think you should know by now that no matter what I do, nobody will be screwed by me financially.

If I set up a recording label, that would just be for the ability to give the project a bit more "seriousness", keep the books on the CDs separate, and let the contributors say, "Why yes, my work appears on the Dragon Claws label" or whatever. No way will that label be keeping the royalties without divvying them up...and I also will be making all the financial information re: the CD available to all the participants, in as close to real-time as possible. Nothing will be done in secret.

[Recording Engineer]

Well, like I said. Dragon Claws Label would only be needed for the SR copyrights form for submition to The Library of Congress. Where the problem comes in is that if a submited song is on another (or other) CD other than the compliation and that song from the other CD recieves air play (not off the compilation), then how would you know if Dragon Claws Label would recieve the royalities and or the performing artists who own the SR copyrights for the song from the other CD recieving air play.

I know I'm having a hard time explaining, but... See what I mean?

[Dragon]

Ah, yes I do see. And I think the answer is easier than you think (or I'm extremely simple myself tonight).

Let's say R.E. copyrights and submits a song. Dragon Claws puts it on the HomeRec Comp CD (of whatever name), and submits an SR copyright. Now R.E. takes the same song and submits it to Taxi where he gets a zillion dollar contract and you hear it everywhere.

R.E. then gets royalties from airplay, sent to him by ASCAP or whoever, and he also gets royalties from Dragon Claws for every CD sold.

Right?

[Recording Engineer]

Ah!!! Yes, you are right. I wasn't even thinking about sold CD royalties, because I'm not really worried about making any money. Just to help take some of the duplication and priniting costs off our shoulders.

So, it's up Dragon Claw to provide a contract.

[Slackmaster2K]

So Dragon, are you going to be able to do the whole contract thing or not? We know you're busy. There is a guy here who could help but I haven't heard from him in a few weeks...don't know what's going on.

As far as profits go...here's how I feel:

1) People who put money up must be paid immediately...until then we aren't actually "profiting".
2) I don't want $0.25 checks to start rolling into my mailbox. I would rather have Dragon keep the money to invest in the BBS.
3) UNLESS: the CD is some kind of crazy hit for some reason and people start buying thousands of them. Ha ha. But seriously, some sort of cap...like if we sell over 50 or 100 (to outsiders) then we start spreading the money around. Just a though.
4) I would expect to be paid royalties if someone copied or played my song on the radio.

Time. Do we want some sort of time limit? Do you want Dragon to be making HR.Comp CD's 30 years from now when you're a big superstar? Is this even an issue?

Slackmaster 2000

[Recording Engineer]

So it would be up to the label Dragon Claws to provide a contract stating that the recording artist(s) (and list the name(s)), will recieve radio royalties from ASCAP, BMI, or SESAC for (insert song name here). Also stating specificly to where or who the bill paying and profits will be going afterwards.

What we have to decide is who's gonna collect the money and where it will go when profit is finally made.

[rj]

Of course thats an issue! They are all issues. Technically, I bet there is no possible legal,moral, "make every body happy", way of producing this cd. I don't know about copyrights or royalties.
I'm gonna send a copyrighted song. This means I have the copy rights. Whoever makes/distributes the cd will be responsible for that. This is why, legally, I bet the only way to go is for everyone to sign either a waiver or a contract.
Send me all your copyrighted songs. Ain't no wayyyy I'm gonna compile them and sell them without written consent. Don't wanna get sued
. I am not saying this because I am worried about my silly little song (Kicks ass!), I am saying this because I think there is one thing that I know.
---You don't know the correct way to compile an album---
and---I don't know the correct way to complie an album---
Somebody's gonna be open to gettin screwed unless we simply ask someone who knows. A lawyer, or someone who has done one of these right.
Ramblings of a madman,
RJ

[DaveX]

I hate to be the contrarian in every situation, but from my own experience at worrying about labels and such, I pretty much found out that all that stuff is bull. The more you involve yourself in it, the less focus there is on what is important: music. Put some legalese garbage in the thing saying we all have copyrights, and that people need to contact the artist before pursuing any sort of play outide of the album itself for home use, and then I think that covers it. Whenever you create something, you already have the copyright on it. If you want to prove it in court someday, just have a copy of your song on tape that you mailed to yourself at such and such date. That way, you have a postage date on it, and that's good enough for me.

I guess I'm too DIY. I tried to start my own label before, and realized that it was not worth it. What I really wanted, I found out, was a distributorship. I mean, really, what was I going to do? Sign myself? Give myself an advance?

What I found out that I needed was the ability to call up every Disc Jockey in the country, and get my record in their store, or just set up a website to sell my stuff from. I guess when you make weird-ass music, you don't expect people to play it on air anyway, and since I've always copied albums from friends, I figure everyone else will do the same. If I make enough money someday to make music, and nto have another job, I'm cool. That's all I need. I see this compilation as a way to get my music heard a bit around the world. Name recognition, nothing else, really. If it falls into the hands of someone who wants to make a movie with it, let them call me. No problems. Keep it simple, fellows, and everything will be right-o.

DaveX

[Recording Engineer]

That type of mantality is what gets you screwed. By the way, the "poor man's copyright" doesn't stand-up worth sh*t in court.

[S8-N]

I don't give a shit about copyrights either... If someone wants to steal one of my songs, they have their work cut out for 'em... I'd be interested to hear it.