All this talk about samples and triggering is really starting to bother me.

[VTgreen81]

Maybe I'm too much of a purist, but when did it become wrong for a drum kit to sound like a drum kit? It seems to me samples are a shortcut instead of working at it to get a good sound, kinda like eating frozen dinners when you don't feel like cooking. I was gonna start a rant but I gotta take my daughter to a piano lesson.

[Gidge]

when you want strings on a song, do you use a synth or hire an orchestra?......

[picostudios]

I only use triggers if the kit sounds like crap.

[glimmer_doll]

Originally Posted by VTgreen81

Maybe I'm too much of a purist, but when did it become wrong for a drum kit to sound like a drum kit? It seems to me samples are a shortcut instead of working at it to get a good sound, kinda like eating frozen dinners when you don't feel like cooking.

Hell yeah muthafucka! i hate all this trigger-happy hippie sample bullshit. Whatever happened to the enjoyment of the imperfections in music? You know...the things that make it human....That's right..lets just all sell our souls to satan because it's easier, and hey, i can't tell the difference when i listen to it anyway.

And lets stop all these "live" "bands" that run fucking pre-recorded tracks during their "performances" I don't want to go see a band and have it sound just like the cd...i want an actual live inspired rendition of the songs...how is it that Milli Vanilli is so harshly mocked for this...but now it's running rampant through the industry...and no one fucking cares...bastards!!!

ok...i need a chill pill now...

[Stealthtech]

Im a drummer of 28 years and I use samples.
I trigger from drum triggers on my set.
I got tired of fucking with mic placement, etc...
If your playing the kit why does it matter if its miced or triggered samples ?
Its the talent that makes the track good.
I have complete control of each and every drum, cymbal, hats, etc...
And I use 24 bit studio recorded samples...clean as a whistle !

If you listened to one of my songs, would you know if there samples...Unlikely

I frown on loops however...thats the non-drummers way out.

[Bulls Hit]

I'm with Stealth.

I like to use technology to my advantage so I'll trigger a kick or a tom sample when my recording setup is deficient in producing the sound I want.

When playing, all I want is the groove. Samples can help make a good groove sound great

[Davenhurst]

Seems like there are two separate points being argued here. The use of samples as a quick way of getting a "good" drum sound sucks satan's balls (unless used in a demo capacity to provide a point of reference for later development, i guess). Triggered samples can really add something to a drummer's arsenal, Danny Carey (Tool) uses lots of electronics in his set-up, and the music benefits from it. His playing is super-precise and somehow that makes it much darker. However, lots of drummers are super-precise but come across as over-technical, style-over-content wankers.

The whole idea here is to be creative, embracing technology and anything you can get your hands on that makes a noise should be encouraged, just don't turn into a brain-dead drum machine of a generic muso.

I'm currently building an electronic kit, each pad will be indepedently controlable with multi-effects and loop capability, and damn it i'm going to make some fucked up grooves. Nothing wrong with that.

So what do you all make of drumming in electronica these days? Have a listen to "Flim" by Aphex Twin and check out what he's done with drums.

[VTgreen81]

Originally Posted by Gidge

when you want strings on a song, do you use a synth or hire an orchestra?......

Of course not, but if i'm a cellist I'm gonna play my cello not my synth.

I'm talking about drummers who would rather use samples than retune. Or when someone asks how to get a particular sound they are told what samples to use instead of how to make the drums make that sound.

How many guitarists when asked how to play harmonics would say "xxxsoftsynth has a great guitar harmonics patch"?

yeah, there really is such a patch

[Gidge]

oh i see.....im nowhere near good enuff to play my own drum parts so i program and use samples.......

[gemsbok]

i think some people have this idea that just because its electronic its fake or cheating somehow and how can you play that electronic drum thing. it has nothing to do with being a purist or loyalty. if that was the case eddie vanhalen would be wailing his eruption solo on a jumbo gibson acoustic playing into mic on stage. last i checked samples are nothing more than recorded snipets of the most time consuming process of recording. samples are made in the best studios using great rooms and jillion dollar mics and pres. you still gotta play the part. the only thing i dont have to do now is constantly buy new heads re-adjusting mic position and wasting time that in the end sounds no different than putting a cheesey boom box in the middle of the room to record my drums.i dont have a great room or big mic collection so i will just keep plugging in.

[glimmer_doll]

Originally Posted by gemsbok

i think some people have this idea that just because its electronic its fake or cheating somehow and how can you play that electronic drum thing. it has nothing to do with being a purist or loyalty. if that was the case eddie vanhalen would be wailing his eruption solo on a jumbo gibson acoustic playing into mic on stage. last i checked samples are nothing more than recorded snipets of the most time consuming process of recording. samples are made in the best studios using great rooms and jillion dollar mics and pres. you still gotta play the part. the only thing i dont have to do now is constantly buy new heads re-adjusting mic position and wasting time that in the end sounds no different than putting a cheesey boom box in the middle of the room to record my drums.i dont have a great room or big mic collection so i will just keep plugging in.

But you're missing out on half the fun. Don't you enjoy the challenge of trying to make good recordings from junk...? or the sense that you're doing things or micing things in your own way, rather than using some samples so that your drums sound more "professional" just like everyone elses drums...?

I mean, i'm cool if you want to use triggers and whatnot to expand your sonic creativity....but not just because it's easier than getting out an actual mic or tuning a drum...

where's the sense of adventure in playing it safe...?

[protein]

I'd clean up a kick drum track by using the best kick hit of the recording and copying/pasting it over the crap sounding ones. Sometimes you have a crap drummer to deal with and he'll hit things gently or at the wrong time. The whole drum track is a digital sample anyway (unless you're using analogue of course) .

[glimmer_doll]

yeah...enter the wayback machine...i am still using tape...

[spankenstein]

I understand the reason people use them but it just doesn't seem "real." It's capturing the whole performance not just the timing. I enjoy that no two drummers sound alike: same kit, same mics, same day, same beat the drummers sound 100% different. That's what I'm trying to capture when I record drums the sound of that drummer hitting those drums. If I were to use samples why even bother with playing the drums in the first place? It's just a different way of programming the beats.

[fritzmusic]

I believe that is all comes down to the context of the song. Samples sound better on primarily electronic music, generic rock/metal or country songs. You get into blues or jazz and there is just no way even the best drum sample programmer can make them sound "natural" with all the finesse-y playing that is involved with a real talented drummer, drum tuning, proper room miking and production techniques. It all depends on how organic of a sound is needed for the song and most drummers I personally know are primarily concerned only with their instrument and how perfect their parts sound instead of melding with the overall feel of the song and context and this is where the mis-application of samples can turn an otherwise natural sounding song into a techno-organic mush pile. However, this is an artform of vast subjectivity and this is just my personal opinion. Samples have their place in certain songs and styles but they absolutely cannot be approached as a "panacea" for all drum recording needs.

Certain high quality samples are an Occham's razor to a technically "correct" sound but most of the time, a correct sound doesn't have "character". Sometimes samples sound just too clear and perfect to fit in with the collective imperfections of an otherwise organic sounding song but I fully understand the developmental uses for them to get a general overview for future drum tracking with real drums. I've used samples before in the past to try to correct bad recording techniques and ultimately, I've never been happy until I just re-recorded my drum parts using better recording techniques. In the end, I've found it much easier and time-saving to just play and rerecord parts until I get it right than to dicker around with samples to get the sound I want. However, if anyone works at getting good drum sounds hard enough, it comes easier to them over time than replacing bad things with samples.

[gawkman]

I'm kindof indifferent... I've used triggers, but I like to think of them as a backup. I like the challenge of going for a natural kit that sounds damn good, though.

Here's a song we did w/ with triggers blended in w/ the snare and kick. Snare samples were taken FROM THE ACTUAL drum.... we just had the drummer wack on the snare a bunch ranging from tapping it to full, all-out rimshots.

http://www.purevolume.com/psychostick/music2 (listen to Two Ton Paperweight)

and here's another song, same band... no triggers. Got a decent snare sound... worked better for the hardcore type of production we were going for. Still, if I could ever get the mic'ed snare to sound like the triggered snare (mainly drum clairty), I would be a happy man.

http://pluh.com/r.php?ID=221 (the link to download the song says "Download ABCDEath!")


Oh, and be warned... we're a weird band.

[KeithCF]

This is a very timely thread for me -- I plan to start doing some home recording (adding drum tracks to a friend's songs) and I am deciding whether to go the traditional mic/mixer/compressor, etc. route, or just use triggers and a drum module.

I'll be working with recording software on a PC, so the signal will be digital in the end. I have read about the hassles involved with getting a decent drum sound from mic'ing -- and I have done a fair bit of recording in the studio so I _know_ how much is involved in getting drums to sound good. Seems like triggering sounds would alleviate so much of the hassle. At the same time, I don't want my parts to sound like a drum machine.

Cost is also a factor here -- getting 7 or 8 mics, pre-amp, compressor, a mixer with enough tracks, an external soundcard (audio to digital convertor) with 8 inputs......compared to some triggers and a drum module and PC interface.

Is there a hybrid approach to take so you get the best of both worlds? I.e. trigger snare, kick and toms (no headaches with mic placement and compressor settings) and use a couple of mics for hi-hat and cymbals? I could even add a room ambient mic to the mix to give it more of a "real" sound.

Is an approach like this doable? What do you all think?

Thank you!

Keith

[fritzmusic]

Keith,

To address your question, I've actually done a hybrid between acoustic and triggered drums in recording and there are two possible ways I know it can be achieved. The only way I've actually experimented with was with an Alesis DM5 and I do not know of any ways this can accurately be acheived through the computer or just MIDI alone.

The first method would be to trigger your drums normally. Record the triggered drums through a drum trigger module (e.g.Alesis DM5) and then route the R>L outputs to their own independent tracks in tandem with you recording your acoustic drums. The "pros" to this method are that you get everything done in one shot. The major setback to this method is that you only get one chance to get it right with the triggers. You have to be hyper-vigilant against "double-hits" and "crosstalk" from the triggers to the drum module. Also, you will sacrifice your acoustic sound by having to mount the triggers on the drumheads to obtain maximum triggering accuracy.

The second method is preferred but you have to be a routing wizard to do this and you have to have the gear that can do this. You have to have a multi-bus or sub-group output that you can route all the individual drum mics you're inputting for the acoustic recording in parallel to said drum module unit so that the acoustic drum mics actually double as the triggers themselves. Triggers are, afterall, basically just really cheap microphones....so use the expensive mics and tweak down the sensitivity setting on the drum module to avoid aforementioned doublehits and triggering crosstalk.

I've actually tried both these methods and while they do work, I never got the sound I thought I would but that is subjective to my particular case and the sound I achieved just did not fit into the context of the material we were working on at the time. Whichever way you go, you can always use one of the two above methods and utilize a mix between the acoustic and triggered drums. The only items you cannot affectively trigger and record acoustically at the same time would be cymbals/hi-hats and finesse snare ghost notes.

[triple-zero]

Originally Posted by Stealthtech

Im a drummer of 28 years and I use samples.
I trigger from drum triggers on my set.
I got tired of fucking with mic placement, etc...
If your playing the kit why does it matter if its miced or triggered samples ?
Its the talent that makes the track good.
I have complete control of each and every drum, cymbal, hats, etc...
And I use 24 bit studio recorded samples...clean as a whistle !

If you listened to one of my songs, would you know if there samples...Unlikely

I frown on loops however...thats the non-drummers way out.

ja, I agree.... but im too cheap for triggers.... hehe

[Yasoo]

Originally Posted by VTgreen81

All this talk about samples and triggering is really starting to bother me.

I was gonna start a rant but I gotta take my daughter to a piano lesson.

I know that feeling of being bothered... and ranting can be fun. But for the most part, feeling that way and ranting is destructive behaviour. Try getting a massage, brutha.

[Gidge]

One person is gonna think samples and loops are wrong......

The next is gonna think striggered samples are ok, but loops are wrong........

The next is gonna think all is fair......

We are all gonna have different degrees of what WE think are acceptable ways of making music but i think we should be open to ALL ways that other people employ.....its all about the end result - the music......

[glimmer_doll]

Originally Posted by Gidge

We are all gonna have different degrees of what WE think are acceptable ways of making music but i think we should be open to ALL ways that other people employ.....its all about the end result - the music......

and if you want your music to sound "plastic-perfect" go right ahead, i'm just warning you that you're dating yourself, and it will end up sounding totally cliche...

and don't spend so much time trying to get that perfect sound that you forget to write good songs. good songs will shine through the worst of production values and sound quality...

[fakeness]

I like to record the real drum better; beacuse it gives me more options to do what i want.
MIDI DRUM is good and easy....
just image Manual car and automatic gear car...
automatic gear is easy and good to drive....
but why nascar racer still using manual gear? beacuse they want more options during the race.
So it's really up to you....if you have enough "equipments" and "Experiences"
Manually recording can get you anything you want...
if your budge is tie up and you are young for recording, go for trigger!
nothing wrong with it, it just matter of taste....

p.s. I can tell the difference between trigger drum and real drum (in some ironic way, trigger drum usually sounds better)