No makeup Gain on comp....

[turnitdown]

I posted a similar question before, but got no response. Mayber if I re-word it...

Can anyone give me a reason why a compressor might lack a "Gain Control". (also called makeup gain or output gain...)

When one of my comps (my Symetrix 501) compresses, it lowers the gain by x db, and there's no way of making it up to unity...

This is unlike my RNC and DBX comps... and it sucks for comparing processed vs. unprocessed signal, as the apparent volumes are so different.

Is there ANY reason a respectable manufacturer like Symetrix would do this?? Hell even the Alesis 3630 has a Gain control. (I think... )

Is it just assumed that I'll make up the gain by jacking up a fader?? That doesn't seem right....

[Teacher]

you prolly got no response because no one here has a similar experience because it seems to make no sense...you sure the output gain knob isn't under a more esoteric label?

[turnitdown]

you sure the output gain knob isn't under a more esoteric label?

Oh, I posted it right...

The comp has 2 channels...

Each channel has the following 4 controls:
Attack, Release, Ratio, Threshold

That's all... Oh, and an In/Out button.... and a button to cycle through it's other functions: Comp/Ducker/Gate/Expander

The model is Symetrix 522...

[turnitdown]

Oh, and Symetrix has no doc on their website... The unit has been discontinued... Google show nada...

[charger]

My 525 has not attack or release controls, but plenty of output gain! Are you running it as in insert to your board, and if so, can't you just take up the track's gain slider? Most boards have an input gain knob that is pre-insert, and a gain knob or slider that is post-insert.

[turnitdown]

Are you running it as in insert to your board, and if so, can't you just take up the track's gain slider? Most boards have an input gain knob that is pre-insert, and a gain knob or slider that is post-insert.

My unit is the 522, not the 525...

But, I'm running it not quite as an insert... I'm using it between a Symetrix sx202 and a line level channel on a Behringer board (For monitoring/routing)
into a Delta 44.

I can slide up that channel's fader, but it still doesn't let me compare in/out compressor settings, w/o having to make volume changes at the board. (As you know, almost any increase in volume is percieved as "better"... :-)

This was, at one time, a pricey, decent compressor. I just figured that they might have had a reason why they ommitted such a standard control. Even Alesis has a Gain knob. Shheeessshhh!!

Thanks though....

[charger]

Yeah, that was my point. Your 522 has no gain knob, my 525 has no attack or release controls. I guess Symetrix didn't want to confuse the issue by putting too many controls on there.

In my experience, the Symetrix compression is easy to hear. Just try a couple recording passes, make changes, note the settings for each pass, then listen back and pick the one that sounds best. I use the symetrix on drums, so it's pretty hard for me to tell what it's doing to the sound while I'm adjusting it and playing anyway, but I give myself a few different options on playback, and then pick the one I like best.

Sorry I don't have a better answer for you!

[turnitdown]

No problem... I just think it's like selling a car w/o air conditioning, or a transmission... (bad analogy ;-)

[Mikeidge]

No output gain on a compressor is unheard of. i would just sell it and get one that has it.

[turnitdown]

Well... just out of curiousity.... I shot an email to Symetrix today....
15 minutes later, I had a response (on a VERY unsupported product!!!! Imagine if it were current... I guess they would drive out to my house!!!)

THESE GUYS ROCK IN THE SUPPORT DEPARTMENT!!!!!

Well, unfortunately, this product is way before my time with the company and before many current people's time as well. So I can't drum up a lot of information on short notice.

However, the most obvious design and marketing reasons there is no
makeup gain on this product:

1. Live sound. This product was intended for, and was mostly used in,
live sound. In live sound you use a dynamics processor for protection
purposes (limiting mostly). When you hit the compressor, you don't want that
signal to exceed a predetermined level. If it does, bad things happen (blown
speakers, lawsuits, etc.). So in this market, more gain is very bad.
Definitely no need to make any gain up!

2. Front panel real-estate. It's a feature packed product... Where
would you put an extra knob?

3. It's a multi-processor box and many controls are multi-purpose
depending upon the mode. Some functionality you would find on a dedicated
processor has to be sacrificed. This happened to be one of those features that one could live without if necessary in order to get the other functions. If
you wanted a full featured compressor/limiter, one of the other products we
had available at the time would have been a better choice.

I gather from your signature that you are using this processor in a
studio environment. If that's the case, you should have several quality gain
stages at your disposal (mixer, line amp, downstream processor, etc.) and any of those should suffice.

Trent Wagner
Product Specialist

Symetrix, Inc.
6408 216th St. SW
Mountlake Terrace, WA 98043
Tel: 425-778-7728 x239
Fax: 425-778-7727
http://www.symetrixaudio.com
http://www.lucidaudio.com
http://www.airtoolsaudio.com

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Neil Pearl [mailto:
> Sent: Monday, June 28, 2004 2:43 PM
> To: tech@symetrixaudio.com
> Cc:
> Subject: No Makeup Gain control on Compressor? Please help us
> to understand...
>
> Hi,
>
> My question is about the Model 522 Compressor that Symetrix
> made long ago...
>
> I know the unit is no longer supported, and as such, you are
> certainly under no obligation to respond to this email, but
> here it goes anyway...
>
> Me and the folks on the homerecording.com forum are currently in debate
> regarding the lack of a GAIN control on the 522
> Comp/Limiter/Ducker/Gate....
>
> Was there any reason (other than financial) that this
> seemingly standard control was omitted for the control set of
> this Compressor? All of the other standard controls are
> present. (Threshold, Ratio, Attack, etc...) Is there a
> recommended workaround to compensate for gain lost due to
compression?
>
> I am the one who started this discussion on the forums, and
> it seems to have stirred up some interesting responses, but I
> suspect that none of them are actually the truth.
> I'd like to know the real story, and thought the actual
> manufacturer/designers would be a logical place to turn.
>
> Thank you for your time, I am very pleased with all of my
> Symetrix products. Thanks !!
>
> Neil Pearl
> Engineer
> Shedding Cat Studios
> El Dorado Hills, CA