Myth or Truth? That Pro Studios Have Real Stuff that We Could Never Get or Afford.

[junplugged]

Myth?

I heard that there is 'stuff' in 'there' that has unknown names and does amazing things that we hear only on the big, major label released CD's. And that the stuff in 'those' racks is super expensive, and not available to anyone else. But is needed to get out CD's to sound as good as the productions on the 'radio.'

Or is this just hype and smoke to get us in there paying big bucks for their pseudo-secrets?

Or worse yet, get us to believe we need a major label?

[royharper3220]

shhhhhhhhhh!

[Wolfman140]

I don't think there is any CIA of record companies...Sure, there may be special magazines and price lists that they have that are full of ridiculously expensive equipment that may be a bit better than whats available thru Musicians Friend or something. But...I don't think anything is secret or extremely better than we could buy. They just have enough money to spend to dick around for weeks on a track until it sounds perfect too. :-)

-Kevin

[lumbago]

The recording is only as good as the original performance, plus any amount of post-production based "enhancement".

Domestically, the ability to produce CD-quality recordings has never been more affordable.

Ask any studio sitting on a bank loan and looking at $500,000 worth of recording equipment inventory - they will struggle over time to make money, and their gear will become progressively more obsolete, and devalued, except in very few cases.

Go make some music.

[Massive Master]

The law of diminishing retutrns -

A Manley Vari-Mu goes for what, $5,000 or so?

A Bellari tube-opto goes for probably $500.

Is the Bellari really *ten times better* than the Manley?

Well, maybe that isn't the best comparison... Anyway, the point is, that there is indeed stuff that few people are familiar with, that you'll NEVER see at a "music store" in many mastering houses. Junger, Cranesong, Lavry, PrismSound, Massenburg... The list goes on. Add to that all the modified and one-off stuff and you've got some pretty esoteric setups out there.

There's more or less a threshold of "This is nice stuff" and then every dollar worth of better sound costs you a hundred bucks.

Now, do you *need* all that to get a "pro" sound? Certainly not. You can prove that easily with almost any piece of gear by taking a "pro" track and running it through whatever your testing, and A/B'ing the result. If it still sounds "pro" you at least know that the equipment can handle "pro" sound. Of course, that doesn't mean that when you're 6dB in, a Behringer is going to do the job just as well as a Drawmer or Tube-Tech, but therein lies the real difference. To "coin" another money phrase, you're stacking nickels to end up with dollars. Some nickels shine more than others.

[noiseportrait]

Some studios have access to equipment that very few people could ever afford. Most of it is vintage gear like fairchild compressors or neve consoles that cost more than a lot of nice houses. Others like Sear Sound have a lot of hand built equipment that nobody else has, but it is never this gear that would make or break a recording. Most people probably wouldn't be able to even hear the difference. Having good gear is important when you are doing professional recordings for the radio or major release, but they just use all the overkill esoteric gear because they can. Good gear is good gear. It doesn't make THAT big of a difference whether you are using an API or some crazy-expensive vitage tube pre, but you would too if you had the choice wouldn't you? There is no big secret though. Most studios advertise that they have esoteric and expensive gear because it will attract more clients. As far as some secret box that big studios use to make songs sound great, that is bullsh*t. Think about it, most of the stuff on the radio sounds like crap anyway. I have a lot of cds from bands that recorded in small, not budget, but modest studios that sound a lot more hifi than most major label crap.

[c7sus]

I think it's kinda like travelling into outer space.

That last 10% of getting there is where all the $$$ gets spent.

But yeah, you're never gonna get there if the talent's feet are buried in concrete up to it's neck.

[Be Loveless]

If you want to get an upclose look at some esoteric/custom gear check out Steve Albinis studio at www.electrical.com
or theres this other place called Makeshift Studios. I forget thier address but do a google or get thier link off of Tape Op.

[MadMinute]

The last big "real" studios I was in was back in '98.
They certainly had some stuff that most people can't get and are ridiculously expensive. Things like Studer 2" tape decks, with matching engineers, Neve and SSL boards, and big rooms. They also had high dollar producers and hefty price tags to rent spaces.
Major labels throw alot of money at projects, and before they go into digital they sound damned amazing. Maybe sometimes a bit too polished and processed, but as pristine as you can imagine.
Bear in mind that alot of work and man-hours goes into even the simplest tracks. Nothing is done only once, even if the first take is the keeper of the bunch.
Anyway, just some observations.

Peace.

[wesley tanner]

seems to me that mastering is where the esoteric shit should matter... like the spacecraft analogy-- if you drive to the space shuttle in a kia or a porsche, it'll still be the same people gettin' on the plane. wait... ah fuck it I gotta work tomorrow.

I've heard BS mixes turn into masterpieces of soundscapes with some incredible masterings... but I'm not sure how much of THAT is bs vs talent...

[Beltrom]

Originally Posted by Wolfman140

They just have enough money to spend to dick around for weeks on a track until it sounds perfect too. :-)
-Kevin

It's a bit funny that time is the one area where those of us who are weekend warriors should be able to compete. But we don't have the patience.

[chessrock]

There's no big secret to all this mess.

Think about it like a gormet meal prepared by a professional chef. You use top-quality, fresh ingredients. You cook it at precicely the proper temperature for the right length, etc. etc. bla bla bla bla. You can sit there and say: "Oh, they have some secret ingredient in their recipe that no one knows about. That's why it's so good." Or you can just accept the fact that they have a damn fine kitchen with an amazing chef . . . they understand the food industy, and know how to make a fine dish. Because that's what they do. That's their job. That's what they are evaluated on, daily, by their peers, their customers, and their potential customers.

Back to music: You get a bunch of good musicians together and have them play top-quality instruments and amps (carefully tested and maintained by paid technicians) . . . you mic 'em up with nice mics in a meticulously-treated room and stick a guy in the Engineer's booth who does this shit for a living -- is passionate, knowlegable, and basically obsessed with audio 24/7 (that's your secret ingredient).

It'll be kinda' tough not to get pretty slick results.

[wilkee]

When the quality of the recordings is as bad as the majority seem to ship out nowadays who gives a toss what they use.

[junplugged]

Wow, what a great bunch of responses, doesn't anybody sleep?

I have this image of a guy who lives in a studio control room saying with wide open eyes, "and we have THIS! and this and this and this" And saying how this is the majic that makes you famous and how anyone who could possibly think that they could come anywhere NEAR the sounds that WE can conjure up has to be completely insane, etc. Some wizard, kind of like computer wiz's who have that attitude that you can't possably understand what it is they're doing and what they're using, etc.

Elitism for ego and selling. But that can be found everywhere, like the cooking analogy.

I think tho, especially after the 'grunge' fad that passed, that it's different from the '70's and 80's when so much had the polished sound. If someone really wants that polished sound it's available, but not needed now. It's true, I do hear a lot of strange stuff on the radio, and on CD's.

then another whole thing is that people are walking around with self burned CD's of wave files that have been uncompressed from compressed mp3 files that have stripped a big percentage of the original wave file out of them, but that's being played thru headphones w/ background noise....

I guess it makes me wonder for example, how good is a compressor that I can afford, does it really do what I need compared to what I couldn't afford. Like a surge supressor, how fast can it react to a high voltage transient that can kill my gear, is the $1,000 one really that much more protection than the $10 one?

[randyfromde]

then another whole thing is that people are walking around with self burned CD's of wave files that have been uncompressed from compressed mp3 files that have stripped a big percentage of the original wave file out of them, but that's being played thru headphones w/ background noise....

Garbage in, garbage out. The mp3 is only as good as it's source...if you decide that "it's gonna be made into an mp3, so why make it sound good", it'll sound even worse when it is converted.

[Michael Jones]

Originally Posted by Massive Master

The law of diminishing retutrns -

A Manley Vari-Mu goes for what, $5,000 or so?

A Bellari tube-opto goes for probably $500.

Is the Bellari really *ten times better* than the Manley?

Ummm....... huh?

[Mark7]

I think John must have wrote that in a hurry

[chessrock]

Originally Posted by junplugged

I have this image of a guy who lives in a studio control room saying with wide open eyes, "and we have THIS! and this and this and this" And saying how this is the majic that makes you famous and how anyone who could possibly think that they could come anywhere NEAR the sounds that WE can conjure up has to be completely insane, etc. Some wizard, kind of like computer wiz's who have that attitude that you can't possably understand what it is they're doing and what they're using, etc.

Now don't get the wrong idea, because I'm not by any means speaking from firsthand experience. But I do know a few people who know a few other people, and so on. Bla bla bla. And from what I gather, most of the guys who are in these positions you're refering to have all, at some point, had to eat plenty of shit. And even the big dogs with accomplishments ("Wow, you're Bruce Dickenson!") still have to eat their fair share from time to time.

Add in the fact that most of these guys probably aren't making nearly as much dough as you might think. Anyway, my point is that I don't see big egos and elitism as being very common traits amongst even the top AE's. At least not any more than the general population.

Funny thing is they could probably stand to be a bit more arrogant than they are. Because, yea, like the computer guy . . . most of them do know a lot more than you do. And the really accomplished ones have probably worked a lot harder than you, (for less pay) and had to be twice as talented and eat twice as much shit, in order to get where they are.

[Massive Master]

Originally Posted by Mark7

I think John must have wrote that in a hurry

Well, I did mention that it might not be the best comparison...

[freshmattyp]

I've always believed that talent and experience trump gear every time. The magic is in the Captain, not the boat. Of course, it's easier for me to think that with my humble setup.

[junplugged]

Well, I'm sure the guys are all pros and have talent and experience, etc. But then why would they point to the gear as the majic ingredient? I could believe it's the brain and ears more than some unattainable rack gear that has a button on it that says, "Platinum." Or a rack mount box with one button that is labeled, "Direct to Radio."

As far as money, the facts there are more hidden than any equipment could ever be.

And it's true about computer experience, I could get just about anything working to it's limits efficiently. I'm still using a 1995 Pentium 133 w/ 65mb ram for a lot of stuff w/ no trouble, but it would take a while to list what I've had to do to get it there. Well, some trouble actually, but I work around it, etc....

[randyfromde]

Well, I'm sure the guys are all pros and have talent and experience, etc. But then why would they point to the gear as the majic ingredient? I could believe it's the brain and ears more than some unattainable rack gear that has a button on it that says, "Platinum." Or a rack mount box with one button that is labeled, "Direct to Radio."

If the customer believes that a $2000 Avalon preamp is "their sound" and you don't have one, you're not getting the work. Period. Doesn't matter what your skills are. The mind is a terrible thing!

That's why engineers/studios "sell" their equipment list to you when trying to get work. For some people, that stuff matters. And there is no telling them otherwise.

[junplugged]

Originally Posted by randyfromde

If the customer believes that a $2000 Avalon preamp is "their sound" and you don't have one, you're not getting the work. Period. Doesn't matter what your skills are. The mind is a terrible thing!

That's why engineers/studios "sell" their equipment list to you when trying to get work. For some people, that stuff matters. And there is no telling them otherwise.

Ok, there's my answer, that makes a lot of sense.

Like, "Hey, do you have an amp that goes up to 11?" Ok, we'll record here.

True, some (a lot) of people are material oriented and need the fast car to go 55 / 65 depens where you are.... Need to feel impressed with the hardware instead of the data creation. Need the high maintanance blonde to feel the same thing....

[SonicAlbert]

The difference between the great high end stuff and the cheap prosumer gear is pretty dramatic. I really didn't buy into that until I purchased my first few really expensive pieces of rack gear, then my ears got opened up. All gear has a signature though, and some lower end pieces can be very useful for specific tasks.

The other "ingredient" (love the restaurant analogy) is the people running the gear. Their talent, experience, ears, etc. Great gear combined with great performances of great music, combined with great engineering and mixing talent, equals "magic".

It's the combination of all of the above that do it. A great engineer is hampered by lesser gear, and great gear in the hands of a poor engineer won't sound that great.

If you take a look at the Steve Albini site (great site) you'll see that he has some gear that is mid-to-low end, but which he keeps for a specific purpose. like the Alesis Microverb. He is also very generous in sharing why he has each piece of gear, how he uses it and what it's strong points are. This is a perfect example of experience and talent combined with gear. He's not just buying the latest hot stuff being raved about on message boards.

[chessrock]

Remember, some of these guys are paid for endorsing certain products.

I don't want to comment on what kind of ethics we're getting in to when a guy raves about a particular product for a magazine interview . . . then you see him in one of their ads in the same rag a month later.