Methods of notating songs

[david strait]

Just curious, How do you guys go about notating songs as you write them? I've always just used a notebook and written the lines double-spaced so that I could write the chord progression in on top of the lyrics. I know that there are a hundred different ways to go about it. Do alot of you read music and notate it traditionally? Use the Nashville number system? Do any of you write completely in your head until you have the song finished? I'm just looking for fresh perspectives. Cheers!

[old dan]

I used to use your method but have switced to Nashville Notation. Seems much easier.

[Aaron Cheney]

I talk about this in my book...

Basically, I start writing on page 3 of my notebook. I put all the lyrics on the right page, and related notes/ideas/rhyming words/ etc on the left facing page (page 2). I proceed that way through the notebook: lyrics on the right page, notes on teh left. Doing this lets me see my lyrics and my working notes without having to flip pages.

I usually compose the melody in my head until the lyrics are nearly finished. At that point I work out the chords on my guitar and play/sing the whole song live into the computer. Once that's done, then it's rewrite city for a while. Once I've got the kinks all worked out and I've rewritten the song to the point where it's close to final I play/sing the song live to a click track and use that as a guide to start recording all the different parts and working out the arrangement.

A
www.aaroncheney.com

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by old dan

I used to use your method but have switced to Nashville Notation. Seems much easier.

What is Nashville Notation?

[stonepiano]

Originally Posted by jfrog

What is Nashville Notation?

The Nashville Number System is a method of writing chord charts using numbers instead of chord letters.

With numbers, a chord chart can be played in any key without re-writing the chart.

[jfrog]

Thanks. I know the method, but I didn't realize it had a name.

[old dan]

Originally Posted by stonepiano

The Nashville Number System is a method of writing chord charts using numbers instead of chord letters.

With numbers, a chord chart can be played in any key without re-writing the chart.

Exactly.

[old dan]

A related question: how many of you use programs like Lyricist?

[Michael Jones]

I use pages of pre-printed staffs, and write it out note for note in both the treble and bass clefs.

[Jagular]

Heck, this is a tougher question than it appears. I have an organizer/3-ring binder thingy I carry around with me everywhere I go. I have 3 sections I call "hooks" "working lyrics" and "lyrics". In the "hooks" section I list any hooks or ideas that come to my head before they escape, many times with a little explanation of the premise of the song. Based on a seminar I attended I created a little template (I don’t always use it) that lists the song title, hook (usually same as title), premise of the song, key words & phrases, and other notes. I also have a second page to this template where I roughly define the story line in song format (VCVCBC, or AABA…etc.). Once I’ve decided I’ve developed an idea to where I want to start writing I’ll transfer these notes to the “working lyrics” section.

In the working lyrics section I will just start writing. Verses & choruses & bridges OH MY!!! Usually at this point melody will help to start shaping the lyrics for me. I will write chord changes in here as well and often make quick recordings of melody lines on my little hand held recorder. I can end up with several pages of chicken scratch in this section. When I feel like I have beat it up enough, then I start a fresh page on the “lyrics” section.

In the “lyrics section, I keep a clean copy of the lyrics. Sometimes hand written, sometimes typed. If I make small adjustments to lyrics I will simple erase a line and replace it. If I do a major rewrite I will start a new page. I will sometimes include chord changes here if I hadn’t already had them worked out.

With rewrites and all, this can end up to a lot of pages for one song. I have all of these pages indexed with a table of contents in each section. When a song is done, I will create a file for it and take all the related pages and any related work tracks I have and file them all together. I know have a nice file documenting dates and progress on songs I have worked on. Never know when that could be handy

So I guess my method is kind of a hodge-podge trying to keep some semblance of order of what comes from my chaotic mind. . I don’t always follow all of the above steps. Sometimes something just hits and I write it. More often than not I work hard on each song though.

I like Aaron’s idea about the facing pages. I may incorporate that in my little system.

Probably more than you wanted to know!!!

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Jagular

So I guess my method is kind of a hodge-podge trying to keep some semblance of order of what comes from my chaotic mind.

That's what you call "hodge-podge?" It sounds disciplined and organized to me! You've got some good ideas there. Thanks for sharing them.

[Layla Nahar]

I really can't read music - I sho nuff can't write it. I write the lyrics, I play what I'm singing on the piano, like a hunt & peck typist, then I write a note name above the syllable -- BUT now that I have my mac with a seqencer, i just play it & remember it.

Actually, if I forced myself to, I could make some sort of lead sheet - but why do that if you can get something like finale to do it for you?

[lykwydchykyn]

I typically type out lyrics in windows Wordpad. It's quick and simple and does what I need. When I get lyrics to a relatively complete point I'll print out a copy and start working out chords in pencil.

I do a lot of the process in my head, though. I figure if a lyric is good enough to keep I'll remember it. If I can't remember it, it's not very memorable, is it?

Ok, really I'm just too busy to write it down when I need to.

[Jagular]

Originally Posted by lykwydchykyn

I do a lot of the process in my head, though. I figure if a lyric is good enough to keep I'll remember it. If I can't remember it, it's not very memorable, is it?

I know you qualified this statement in the end, but I just wanted to address this. I have heard a lot of "learning" songwriters say this. Pehaps it is true for some people. It is, however, prettty standard for the pro writers here in Nashville to have pages and pages of hooks in their "hook books". I know for me personally, that I have to write something down or I'll forget it in 10 minutes. Life is hectic for most of us. Why chance forgetting that golden nugget? I KNOW I've forgotten many many decent ideas in the past. I KNOW I still forget many, many melodies that I can't easily get into my little recorder (singing at work is frowned upon) .

Not trying to bust your chops, just wanted to discuss this for the benefit of new writers. Don't be afraid to write your ideas down. It's good enough for the pros, it's good enough for me. Besides, if it really sucks...you can erase it and get rid of the evidence .

[lykwydchykyn]

Well, if I was trying to write pro, I probably would write everything down. For my own songwriting, I like to chew on ideas mentally for a long time. I should clarify too that that's just the way I do it; I'm not saying it's the best way.

I guess I'm not being completely accurate about the way I work anyway. I do have a folder on my computer full of little ideas. The problem is, most of them look really stupid 3 months later. Most of the best stuff I've come up with stuck with me mentally, whether I wrote it down or not.

[Aaron Cheney]

Originally Posted by Jagular

I know you qualified this statement in the end, but I just wanted to address this. I have heard a lot of "learning" songwriters say this. Pehaps it is true for some people. It is, however, prettty standard for the pro writers here in Nashville to have pages and pages of hooks in their "hook books". I know for me personally, that I have to write something down or I'll forget it in 10 minutes. Life is hectic for most of us. Why chance forgetting that golden nugget? I KNOW I've forgotten many many decent ideas in the past. I KNOW I still forget many, many melodies that I can't easily get into my little recorder (singing at work is frowned upon) .

I could not agree more... I carry my song notebook everywhere I go. I have another sitting on my nightstand. I'm not joking when I say that I've had instances where an idea will flit through my head and be gone in 30 seconds. I'll be working on a lyric and think "hey... this might work...I'll write it down as soon as I'm done with writing this line..." and by that time it is gone and replaced by some other thought.

Certainly one of the goals of a songwriter is to craft instantly memorable hooks, but those are the result of much effort and refinement. What I'm talking about here are those first magic impulses and ideas. They are fleeting...

I always write everything down so that I don't have to remember. The shortest pencil remembers longer than the longest memory.

A
www.aaroncheney.com

[mikeh]

I like the methods used by Aaron and Jagular. Aaron's method seems like one that could work for me.

I'm very un-organized and have lost many good ideas over the years (and given that I have actually had limited successes as a writer - I should take the craft more seriously).

I tend to write out lyrics long hand on lined paper (double spaced - to allow for changes, etc). I will normally have enough room at the bottom of the page to write the chord progression, using the Nashvile method (with a reference to the key I'm currently working in. Once I complete enough re-writes I then go into the computer to create a formal document, with back-up disk, etc)

That's on a good day! On a bad day, I have wadded up pieces of paper, match book covers or any number of small documents that would take a team of English professors to interpret.

Regarding the whole "if you can't remember it ain't that good" debate. I have gone through that throught process (and still do on occasion) but I suspect I've lost many ideas that could have been polished. While I can't speak for anyone else, to me, "if you can't remember ......" is simply a excuse to justify a lack of organization and/or comittment to the craft (and I am as much at fault as anyone).

[EddieRay]

Originally Posted by stonepiano

The Nashville Number System is a method of writing chord charts using numbers instead of chord letters.

With numbers, a chord chart can be played in any key without re-writing the chart.

I learned it in music theory class while studying 18th century harmony and always wondered how it acquired the "Nashville" name. The way I learned it, you used roman numerals with upper case (I, IV, V) being major chords, and lower case (i, iv, v) being minor chords.

[EddieRay]

Originally Posted by mikeh

I like the methods used by Aaron and Jagular. Aaron's method seems like one that could work for me.

I'm very un-organized and have lost many good ideas over the years (and given that I have actually had limited successes as a writer - I should take the craft more seriously).

I tend to write out lyrics long hand on lined paper (double spaced - to allow for changes, etc). I will normally have enough room at the bottom of the page to write the chord progression, using the Nashvile method (with a reference to the key I'm currently working in. Once I complete enough re-writes I then go into the computer to create a formal document, with back-up disk, etc)

That's on a good day! On a bad day, I have wadded up pieces of paper, match book covers or any number of small documents that would take a team of English professors to interpret.

Regarding the whole "if you can't remember it ain't that good" debate. I have gone through that throught process (and still do on occasion) but I suspect I've lost many ideas that could have been polished. While I can't speak for anyone else, to me, "if you can't remember ......" is simply a excuse to justify a lack of organization and/or comittment to the craft (and I am as much at fault as anyone).

There's a debate centered around "if you can't remember it ain't that good"?!?
I've lost more cool progressions, even after attempting to burn it into memory by repetition. I lost it because I was nto set up to record on a moment's notice. Not true nowadays but it was for a while. As far as being able to pass judgement on a lost idea without hearing it, I think that's just plain nonsense.

[Jagular]

Originally Posted by mikeh

I'm very un-organized and have lost many good ideas over the years.

That's me to a T. The only way I have to combat it is to set myself up with a sysem I can follow, else chaos ensues .

That reminds me...I heard someone utter words on the radio on my way back from lunch that would be a great hook for a Christian song. It's so obvious that I'd be surprised if it handn't been written and cut before, but I need to write it down before I forget it!!! Just in case!!! Cyas all later

[Jagular]

Originally Posted by Jagular

That reminds me...I heard someone utter words on the radio on my way back from lunch that would be a great hook for a Christian song. It's so obvious that I'd be surprised if it handn't been written and cut before, but I need to write it down before I forget it!!! Just in case!!! Cyas all later

Hmmmm...I did a title search on ASCAP & BMI with no hits on the hook. This might just be too good to be true. Like I said it's soooooo....obvious that I can't believe it hasn't been done yet. This song needs a good writin'!!!!

(sorry, I'm just so excited because I thought this surely would have been done already!!!)

[mikeh]

I learned it in music theory class while studying 18th century harmony and always wondered how it acquired the "Nashville" name. The way I learned it, you used roman numerals with upper case (I, IV, V) being major chords, and lower case (i, iv, v) being minor chords.

I think an Order of the 18th century Brothers Of Perpetual Twang started a settlement which later became Nashvilee

[Jagular]

[lykwydchykyn]

Nashville numbers is a little different from Roman Numerals. For one thing, it uses regular numbers. I never liked it, personally.

Jeez, I didn't mean to upset everyone with that "if it's a good idea I'll remember it". I wasn't being completely serious there, folks. Like I said, the reality is I'm just too busy to always write things down; I usually get the best ideas driving home from work.

[Layla Nahar]

On the idea of "If you can't remember it, it must not be that good"

I have a theory -- If you can't remember it, your MEMORY must not be that good. I write something down if I really think its good. I don't wanna lose it, & heck, my memory just isn't that developed for long term storage.