How to I deal with HD noise on my VF-16?

[guitmartiman]

I recently bought a used VF-16. I'm not entirely new to digital multitrack recording, but up till now I've only done 4-track recording with a Yahama 4-tack mini disc recorder. Right now I'm a little frustrated with how loud the hard drive is in the VF-16. How do I make a clean recording of a an acoustic guitar without picking up the sound of the hard drive? I can't afford (nor do I have the space) to build a sound-proof booth and hire a recording engineer to man the controls. Is there another way to deal with this?

[robjh22]

Same here with my vf 80. I am probably the most ignorant poster here, but I have 2 thoughts I'll offer:

1. If and when I ever want to make a recording that just can't stand that HD noise, I am going to simply run the mike into a different room and either walk back and forth before and after taping or just have one of my children hit the record and stop button as appropriate. (I assume the noise you complain of is getting into the mike, as opposed to noise you hear from the machin on playback?)

2. Hope you're sitting down for this: A lot of us need to be honest about how critical this noise business really is. I was about to tape something the other day and I could hear a little kitchen noise. Sometimes I hear the water fountain in my backyard gurgling. I started to get up and tell the kids to be quiet, and then I had this thought: is there really anything wrong with a little noise? Why? It's part of my life. And I like the sound of a water fountain. Kids get on my nerves, but they're part of my life. When people come over and I play, you can hear kitchen noise mixed in with the playing. Nobody's sued yet. Ever played in a barroom?

3. I have to strain to hear the HD noise from my vf80, and I admit I don't like it, but I'm not sure anybody else can hear it, and I ain't too sure the water fountain outside doesn't dampen it a little.

Look, I know all this is pure heresy, and I respect those of you who are horrified. For me, I have decided to stop worrying about noise and concentrate on the music. If a big label signs me, they can buy me some serious studio time.

[guitmartiman]

Thanks Rob. I'm actually not really a purist when it comes to ambiant noise. I actually appreciate it when sounds of nature manage to serendipitously find their way into my recordings. I was just a little dismayed at just how noisy the VF-16's hard drive is compared to my Yamaha 4 track mini disc recorder. The Yamaha makes a little noise too, but it's not nearly as noticable during quiet passages as is the VF-16's hard drive. Even my wife commented about how noisy it was, and she wouldn't normally notice things like that. I was just wondering if there was some kind of damping technique you can use around the mic to sort of at least filter the noise so it's not quite so obvious. I don't have children living with me that I can employ to man the controls, so I need to be able to be close enough to the unit to do that myself. Too bad these things don't come with a remote! By the way, I'm using is an AT 3035 condenser mic which is kind of new to me too. I've never really used a condenser mic before.

[robjh22]

Why can't you put the machine in one room, you in another, and simply walk back and forth before and after the recording? You know how sensitive condensers are. Is that what you are talking about? Noise getting nto the mike during recording?

[carelessorc]

I had a VF 16, and didn't like the noise, especially when I got an AT 4033 condenser mic. My solution was to trade up to a VF160 - I also got a bigger HD, and a built-in CDR.

That doesn't help yu much I know, but this might: I think there are two differences with the 160 which affect noise. First the HD is completely wrapped in foam, and has no mechanical link to the case (no screws). I believe that later model VF16s had this modification as well. Secondly, the newer generation of hard drives are quieter.
Maybe you could use these 2 bits of info to quieten your machine?

[guitmartiman]

Yes, Rob, that's what I'm talking about. The idea about putting the VF-16 in one room and myself in another may be the best solution to my problem at the moment. Since my last entry I tried putting a blanket over the recorder while I was recording. That helped a little. But I like the idea carelessorc had about quietening the machine down by putting foam around the hard drive. I may try that and see if it works. I may end up buying a new hard drive that has more capacity as well as possibly being quieter. Thanks for the suggestions. If anyone has any more I'd welcome them. Also, I've never used a foot switch. If I put the recorder in another room could I use it to start the recorder when I'm ready to record, or is it just for punch-in purposes? In the past I've used auto punch-in for that purpose, so have never perceived a need for a foot switch.

[mrx]

Originally Posted by robjh22

2. Hope you're sitting down for this: A lot of us need to be honest about how critical this noise business really is. For me, I have decided to stop worrying about noise and concentrate on the music. If a big label signs me, they can buy me some serious studio time.

Off topic of the thread, but AMEN (in more ways than one)!

Such a huge majority of home-recorded stuff is ass, from the bad song writing and ghastly playing to the horrific 'singing' and production - nothing that a good mic pre can't fix, though...

[robjh22]

Yeah, I thought about a foot switch too. I imagine the click will be audible, but only at the beginning and the end, which you can delete anyway. I may call Fostex, but I can't imagine how it would work. All it could do is power you on and off.

Boy, if only I was runnin' the world. Sigh. Then things would be different.

Rob

[guitmartiman]

Dear mrx,

What you say may be true. However, I've had a scripture song music ministry now for seventeen years, and have distributed hundreds of my recordings to many satisfied customers. My singing may not be considered top notch, but neither is it horrific (that is of course unless you just don't like scripture songs). My guitar playing is simple, but well liked by many for the past 37 years that I've been playing. You may not like it, but I would have to say it's a matter of taste, not competence.

What my origiinal question had to do with is how I can overcome a trade-off that seems to have occurred when I upgraded up to a VF-16 from my Yahama MD-4. Not only is it a lot more noisy, but it's a whole lot more complicated and less intuitive to use. Forgive me, but I don't even know for sure what a mic pre is. But thanks for your comment.

[mrx]

guitmartiman -

No offense intended in your direction (which is also why I prefaced by saying 'off topic' of this thread.)

robjh22's comment was just very timely. I was having the same conversation today with another home-recordist who has recently gone back using vintage analog gear - and in the process re-discovered the importance of performance and composition that had gotten lost in a haze of plug-ins.

Back to your original problem, the manual indicates that the VF supports MIDI Machine Control so you should have a ton of options for remote control to avoid having to hit record and running between rooms.

[guitmartiman]

Originally Posted by mrx

the manual indicates that the VF supports MIDI Machine Control so you should have a ton of options for remote control to avoid having to hit record and running between rooms.

That's interesting, but I'm not sure how that might help me record an acoustic guitar track? Being rather MIDI illiterate, I'm not sure what you mean.

[robjh22]

Being COMPLETELY midi illiterate, I don't understand either. Please elaborate mrx

[billisa]

One thing about going digital is that the overall quietness of the medium tends to reveal noise that would've been masked by tape hiss. The VF's will not be as intuitive in the same way as a 4-track analogue machine, but you will find they are very intuitive within the digital way of doing things. They are the most "analogue tape" like of any digital machine.

I would strongly suggest upgrading the harddrive with the Maxtor units currently in use in the VF160, plus the foam or sorbothane approach, as suggested. Make sure to find out exactly how the drives are now wrapped so you don't run into cooling issues. I believe a slower spinning drive (5400rpm) will be quieter and cooler than faster ones... Unlike most, the VF's don't use fans (talk about noise!)

Perhaps even consider sending the unit to Fostex for them to upgrade the drive and the software, check out the whole machine... I assume you got the VF16 used?

As for me, I'm a noise fanatic! I hate it.

My VF160 is very, very quiet, but even so, to avoid weird reflections, I built a PVC pipe frame/mover's blankets booth that does make things a little quieter.

I think it's a little discouraging encountering some of these issues right out of the box, particularly when going digital sounds like the promised land of recording. But, if you stay with it, I'll bet in a few weeks you'll never want to go back to 4-track tape.

There's a good deal of help available on this board to get you through.

[guitmartiman]

Originally Posted by billisa

One thing about going digital is that the overall quietness of the medium tends to reveal noise that would've been masked by tape hiss. The VF's will not be as intuitive in the same way as a 4-track analogue machine, but you will find they are very intuitive within the digital way of doing things. They are the most "analogue tape" like of any digital machine..

I think it's a little discouraging encountering some of these issues right out of the box, particularly when going digital sounds like the promised land of recording. But, if you stay with it, I'll bet in a few weeks you'll never want to go back to 4-track tape.

Actually, the Yamaha MD4, from which I upgraded, is a digital recorder. It's only real drawbacks where that it only had 4 tracks and the medium could be unreliable at times. I seriously considered upgrading to the MD8 to avoid the learning curve, but I have been stuck with 4 tracks for so long, I wasn't sure if 8 would satisfy me. Compared to the VF-16 my MD4 was much easier to learn because the controls were much more intuitive and the manual was very well written. The manual for the VF-16 might as well be written in Greek to a large extent. I'm sure I will learn to appreciate the VF 16 when I finally learn how to use it and overcome its bugs.

I would strongly suggest upgrading the harddrive with the Maxtor units currently in use in the VF160, plus the foam or sorbothane approach, as suggested. Make sure to find out exactly how the drives are now wrapped so you don't run into cooling issues. I believe a slower spinning drive (5400rpm) will be quieter and cooler than faster ones... Unlike most, the VF's don't use fans (talk about noise!).

I have a question about upgrading the hard drive. The Fostex site seems to indicate the need for hardware modifications in order to upgrade the hard drive. Is that true? I really would not like to have to send the machine away if I don't have to. And how would I find out about what kind of foam to use?

Perhaps even consider sending the unit to Fostex for them to upgrade the drive and the software, check out the whole machine... I assume you got the VF16 used?.

Yes, I purchased it from someone through Ebay. It was barely used. I also bought an Iomega 250 Zip drive which allowed me to upgrade the software to the latest version. As I said before, though, I really don't want to send the machine away if I don't have to.

As for me, I'm a noise fanatic! I hate it.
My VF160 is very, very quiet, but even so, to avoid weird reflections, I built a PVC pipe frame/mover's blankets booth that does make things a little quieter..

I may not be a noise fanatic, but I don't need the high-pitched sound of a hard drive in the background. I like the idea of the PVC frame with blankets. I might try that. Thanks!

There's a good deal of help available on this board to get you through.

I have a feeling that's going to be what keeps me from just getting rid of this machine. I still have faith that I may learn to love it.

[mrx]

Originally Posted by guitmartiman

That's interesting, but I'm not sure how that might help me record an acoustic guitar track? Being rather MIDI illiterate, I'm not sure what you mean.

Originally Posted by robjh22

Being COMPLETELY midi illiterate, I don't understand either. Please elaborate mrx

Basically it means that a MIDI controller (which could be anything from a computer to a dedicated MIDIcontrol surface) can send messages to the VF to control things like RECORD/STOP/RW/PLAY, etc. With suitably long cables (MIDI, headphone, microphone, guitar, etc.) you would be able to control the VF from one spot, while the actual recorder was placed at a distance (in a closet, if needed.)

Unless I read about some stunning new product today, I will be ordering a VF and be able to provide more hands-on examples.

[guitmartiman]

Originally Posted by mrx

Basically it means that a MIDI controller (which could be anything from a computer to a dedicated MIDIcontrol surface) can send messages to the VF to control things like RECORD/STOP/RW/PLAY, etc. With suitably long cables (MIDI, headphone, microphone, guitar, etc.) you would be able to control the VF from one spot, while the actual recorder was placed at a distance (in a closet, if needed.)

Why didn't I think of that! I could just put the VF-16 in a closet. That's a great idea! I think I'll try that one.

... I will be ordering a VF and be able to provide more hands-on examples.

That would be great, because what you're saying sounds good, but what I could use is some specific "how to" instructions.

Thanks for taking the time to respond.

[robjh22]

I built a PVC pipe frame/mover's blankets booth that does make things a little quieter.

Hold it ... you still have to turn the thing on and off. Do you have an assistant or do you walk across the room back and forth a lot? Don't you end up with a lot of dead space at the beginning of the program after you delete the 10 seconds of noise on the front end? And by the way, is it possible to cut and past that onto another track closer to the beginning of ABS zero?

[billisa]

Originally Posted by guitmartiman

I have a question about upgrading the hard drive. The Fostex site seems to indicate the need for hardware modifications in order to upgrade the hard drive. Is that true? I really would not like to have to send the machine away if I don't have to. And how would I find out about what kind of foam to use?

I read the same thing, but I recollect hearing somewhere that the hardware modification wasn't always required, even when the site said it was. Matt at Fostex has always been good at answering questions.

You're right about the manual. Though I find the VF160 very intuitive -- actually easier to learn than the manual. There is a site, VF16.com, I believe, that has some procedures better explained -- cut/move and paste, etc...

[guitmartiman]

Originally Posted by billisa

Matt at Fostex has always been good at answering questions.

Thanks for that. I fired him off an e-mail. I also found out there's a service center in Nashville, so even if I have to take it in for modifications, it's not too far from here.

You're right about the manual. Though I find the VF160 very intuitive -- actually easier to learn than the manual. There is a site, VF16.com, I believe, that has some procedures better explained -- cut/move and paste, etc...

It's funny how different people's minds work, I actually saw in another thread where someone thought the VF-16 was more intuitive and easier to use than a Yamaha MD8. My experience so far with the VF-16 compared to the Yamaha MD4 (same as MD8 with 4 less trax to work with) is just the opposite.

I checked out VF16.com. I've been there before. I didn't see the procedural explanations you talked about, but maybe I will find some help in their forum. This one so far has been very helpful though. Thanks for your input.

[billisa]

Originally Posted by guitmartiman

I checked out VF16.com. I've been there before. I didn't see the procedural explanations you talked about, but maybe I will find some help in their forum.

I believe they're in the FAQ's or Tips section under "How do I cut and Paste?" Something like that. Also, the pages on direct and buss recording are great to print, laminate and keep handy...

[guitmartiman]

Originally Posted by mrx

you would be able to control the VF from one spot, while the actual recorder was placed at a distance (in a closet, if needed.)

Although I'm still in the dark about a midi controller, I tried the bit about putting the VF-16 in a closet while the microphone, my guitar and myself were outside the closet while I recorded. It worked rather well in terms of cutting down on the noise of the HD being picked up by the mic. The only drawback was that it took me 25 seconds from the point at which I hit the record button and then closed the closet door, sat down, positioned my guitar to play, paused for a few seconds and then started to play. And of course I had to go through that routine several times before I got a take I was satisfied with. Now, if I coud just figure out how to filter out the train and trafic noise outside my house! I guess I'm going to have to build some sort of a sound booth.

Thanks for all the input, guys.

[guitmartiman]

I thought some of you would be interested to know that I just bought a new Maxtor 3 HD for my VF-16. I bought it because I wanted more capacity, and I was hoping it might be quieter. Well, when I installed it (it took about six hours to format the 40 GB HD!), it works fine, but it's just as noisy as the old one. However, I just placed an order for a Smart Drive insulated HD enclosure. This is supposed to really cut down on the noise level, and I'm hoping it will work for me. I'll keep you posted.

[mrx]

VF-160EX arrived this evening - hopefully this MIDI thing will work, if your drive mount does not help.

[billisa]

Congratulations on the new machine MRX. Hope you get many happy years out of it. Mine is super quiet, though the MR8, with no moving parts would be total "silent running". I'm curious what your experience will be. Anyway, have fun, and post any experiences...

[gmiller1122]

Sometimes I hear the water fountain in my backyard gurgling. I started to get up and tell the kids to be quiet, and then I had this thought: is there really anything wrong with a little noise? Why? It's part of my life. And I like the sound of a water fountain. Kids get on my nerves, but they're part of my life. When people come over and I play, you can hear kitchen noise mixed in with the playing. Nobody's sued yet. Ever played in a barroom?

Just wanted to respond to this -- I completely agree. I kind of like the noise of a random truck passing by or the water heater clicking on. Birds, kids, thunder, phone ringing -- they can all be annoying, but can also be very interesting in the mix. Just my 2 cents.

G