Latency, Buffers, and Pops from Hell!!!

[powderfinger]

Alright guys, please help!!!

Probably 14 out of the 15 tracks I recorded tonight had pops somewhere in them. Not throughout the whole track...just a few random pops, but as we know...one pop can ruin a good recording.

I'm running Cakewalk Sonar with a Delta 44. My PC has 756 RAM (or whatever the round RAM # is in the 700s) and I've got 1.8 Pentium. Running XP.

I've had similar problems in the past, but never near this bad...I pretty much had to scrap everything I did.

I ran a search, but could find no specifics that actually helped

Sonar users....Could you please advise me as to what settings you use for buffers in play back queue, buffer size, and I/O buffer size, as well as to what kind of system you're running. Any other settings I can look at??

I love the whole PC recording, but the lack of stability drives me nuts sometimes....this is something I don't want to have to worry about when recording.

Any advice would be great.

[Qwerty]

Can you post some more specs about what you are using PC configuration wise?

Specifically, are you using a SATA IDE drive for audio?

Also, get into Device Manager, hit the view menu and choose VIEW BY RESOURCE TYPE and have a look to see which interrupt your sound card is sitting on and if it is being shared with another device.

Have a look at this thread from the Cakewalk forum for more info on this subject and troubleshooting steps -

http://www.cakewalk.com/forum/tm.asp?m=45491

It would also be a good idea to grab all the latest drivers for everything in your PC - sound card, video card and mobo drivers especially.

FWIW - I am on a P4 3.0G with 1Gig RAM. I use ASIO drivers, I fiddle the latency from about 4msec up to 25msec if I am using something like SIR - convolution reverb. I/O Buffers are currently set at 512. Read/Write caching disabled.

Ciao,

Q.

[brzilian]

Which version of Sonar?

[powderfinger]

Originally Posted by Qwerty

Can you post some more specs about what you are using PC configuration wise?

Specifically, are you using a SATA IDE drive for audio?

Also, get into Device Manager, hit the view menu and choose VIEW BY RESOURCE TYPE and have a look to see which interrupt your sound card is sitting on and if it is being shared with another device.

Qwerty,
Thanks for the help... I've actually already read that cakewalk thread when I was searching around.

The Delta 44 IS sharing the IRQ as my other sound card....is that bad?

My drive looks like it's and IDE Ultra ATA....is that different than a SATA?

I'm using Sonar 2.

[dachay2tnr]

The two things I would start with are:
1) disable the other sound card if you don't use it. Prefereable in the BIOS, but at least in Windows.
2) try a different Delta driver. From what I can gather, the .27 seems to be the most universally stable. If that's the one you are using, try the .36 or the newest one (.42?). If you are using the .36, you might try going back to the .27.

Also, what OS? Have you optimized it for audio. Particularly with WinXp you need to turn off a lot of the BS that Microsoft turns on by default.

[brzilian]

Sonar 2.0 or 2.2?

If its 2.0, you should look into upgrading. 2.0 only uses WDM drivers. 2.2 and 3.0 can use ASIO. I noticed a significant improvement in performance with ASIO drivers and Cakewalk software with my M-Audio card over WDM.

[powderfinger]

I'll have to check on what driver I'm running when I get home. I am running XP and have shut a few of the suggested things off, but not everything.

I'm not sure which version of 2 I'm running (i'll have to look at that at home too). I've been thinking of just buying Sonar 3....does it have a reputation for being more stable than 2?

Will a Delta 44 card run ASIO drivers?

[dachay2tnr]

Originally Posted by powderfinger

I'll have to check on what driver I'm running when I get home. I am running XP and have shut a few of the suggested things off, but not everything.

I'm not sure which version of 2 I'm running (i'll have to look at that at home too). I've been thinking of just buying Sonar 3....does it have a reputation for being more stable than 2?

Will a Delta 44 card run ASIO drivers?

Yes, the Delta drivers include ASIO. All you would need to do is to tell Sonar to use them (Options > Audio).

If it is simply stability you are after, my advice would be to stick to ver. 2.2. Sonar 3 requires more horsepower to run, and currently has an issue with volume envelopes. If you don't need the new features in S3 (e.g., universal bus routing, VST wrapper) I would stay with S2.

[powderfinger]

Hmmm. So stay with Sonar 2.

Another question, what's a reasonable (slightly conservative) DMA buffer size on the Delta control panel for a computer of my speed?

How does the hardware DMA buffer size differ from the software set buffer size? Should they be set to the same size?

[brzilian]

I would still look in to 2.2 if you don't already have it. There were pleanty of other bug fixes.

[dachay2tnr]

Originally Posted by powderfinger

Hmmm. So stay with Sonar 2.

Another question, what's a reasonable (slightly conservative) DMA buffer size on the Delta control panel for a computer of my speed?

Depends on the level of latency you can tolerate. If latency is not an issue for you, I would set it as high as necessary for it to run properly.

I'm not near my DAW right now, but assuming you can deal with a reasonable amount of latency, I would start with the setting in the 500 range and work up from there. Make sure to reprofile after changing the buffer setting.

[powderfinger]

Well, kind of good news and bad news. I've been reading like crazy to figure this out. I did some tweaking and have been able to get the latency down WAY below what I've ever had it at, which would seemingly indicate better settings.

However, I still can't get through a track without a digital stutter. It's so odd, because in a 4 minute take, it will only happen maybe once, but that's enough to ruin it.

If it's only happening once like that what could it be?

How many buffers in the playback queue is safe?

[Qwerty]

I normally use 2, but it seems sound card dependent.

Have you tried moving slots for the sound card? While you are there take the other one out entirely.

And SATA is a different thing than just ATA, so you should be cool on that front. So said, the info on IRQ sharing and PCI slot timing dependencies could still be useful to you.

Q.

[dachay2tnr]

How many hard drives are you running? I'm wondering if this could be an issue of disk activity while you are recording. Maybe another possible suspect if you are only using a single hard drive.

First, however, I would try disabling/removing the second sound card, unless you are using for something.

[powderfinger]

Originally Posted by dachay2tnr

How many hard drives are you running? I'm wondering if this could be an issue of disk activity while you are recording. Maybe another possible suspect if you are only using a single hard drive.

First, however, I would try disabling/removing the second sound card, unless you are using for something.

I am only running 1 harddrive. Is that bad?

As far as the soundcard, one of the things I did was switch PCI slots, which is now no longer the same as the other card.

[James Argo]

Uh, yes... that's bad. Sharing same HD with OS most likely will cause interuption on R/W process. Even few bits will be noticeable in audio streaming process. I suggest get two HD on different channel. One for OS and SONAR program (application only), the other for audio files you work on.


Jaymz

[James Argo]

Uh, yes... that's bad. Sharing same HD with OS most likely will cause interuption on R/W process. Even few bits will be noticeable in audio streaming process. I suggest get two HD on different channel. One for OS and SONAR program (application only), the other for audio files you work on.


Jaymz

[Qwerty]

A 2nd hard drive is a better option yes, but what you have should work correctly.

More troubleshooting, less cash!

Q.

FWIW - I was running a P4 1.8 which was using the same sort of ATA-100 HD but different partitions for audio and OS. One hard drive - you have enough grunt to make it go. How are you partitioned?

[brzilian]

Originally Posted by Qwerty

A 2nd hard drive is a better option yes, but what you have should work correctly.

More troubleshooting, less cash!

Q.

FWIW - I was running a P4 1.8 which was using the same sort of ATA-100 HD but different partitions for audio and OS. One hard drive - you have enough grunt to make it go. How are you partitioned?

2 partitions would make absolutely no difference since the computer would not be able to access them at the same time. If you want to see some kind of performance increase, you get a 2nd HD and put it om the other IDE ribbon/channel.

[powderfinger]

Originally Posted by Qwerty

A 2nd hard drive is a better option yes, but what you have should work correctly.

More troubleshooting, less cash!

Q.

FWIW - I was running a P4 1.8 which was using the same sort of ATA-100 HD but different partitions for audio and OS. One hard drive - you have enough grunt to make it go. How are you partitioned?

Well, I hope I can get it going without buying more stuff. As of know, the drive is not partitioned to my knowledge.

I'm defragging while at work (for the first time on this computer) and seeing if that helps at all.

I'm at a loss for what else to do if that doesn't work.

Maybe I'll just invest in a non-PC based rig This is such a headache.

[Middleman]

Defrag your audio drive. Turn off the virtual memory/paging file. Reboot. Delete the pagefile.sys file after the reboot. Defrag 2-3 times. Turn your virtual memory/paging file back on and set it for minimum 2 and maximum 1.5x the amount of ram you have. Reboot.

Make sure you profile your card any time you change the M-Audio buffer settings. If your getting pops, start increasing the M-Audio buffer settings, reprofile in Sonar after each change. Keep going up until they go away.

You can also tweak the buffers in Sonar for fine tuning. I find that once I get the popping out, I then lower the M-Audio drivers one setting. Reprofile and then I fine tune in Sonar and that's where I get the lowest latency without pops.

Disable the onboard sound card and make sure that Windows Media player is set to your M-Audio card for playback. This way you are monitoring your final MP3 or Wave results on the same card. Otherwise, you might find your final mixes sound dramatically different than what Sonar sounds like.

Make sure your picture cache under folder locations is pointing to its own seperate folder.

Do you have the latest drivers for video, audio and Sonar?

That's all I can think of, except buy another hard drive as suggested by others, keep Sonar and all of your audio work on this 2nd drive.

[dachay2tnr]

Originally Posted by powderfinger

Well, I hope I can get it going without buying more stuff.

While it *could* come down to needing a second hard drive, I think you have been given a bunch of *cost free* suggestions to try first.

For ex., have you tried switching to a different Delta driver yet? They just released a new one - version .46 - which I'm downloading as I type this. It addresses a couple of Sonar issues (although not the one you are facing).

[powderfinger]

Originally Posted by dachay2tnr

For ex., have you tried switching to a different Delta driver yet?

Yup. Downloaded that. It's what helped getting latency down, but still having the random crackle problem......I'm going to go ahead and try the PCI scheduling from the Cakewalk thread along with the defrag. I hope that helps.

[Qwerty]

Originally Posted by powderfinger

I'm going to go ahead and try the PCI scheduling from the Cakewalk thread along with the defrag. I hope that helps.

I'd really encourage you to drag out your motherboard manual and check out the page which shows the IRQ assignments for the various PCI slots on the board. Depending on which one/s of these you plug different cards into, you will get different IRQ assignments for the sound card, video card etc.

If it is a resource sharing sort of conflict - something grabbing priority of your PC when it shouldn't be - then swapping cards about should help.

Try and get it so that the sound card you are recording with is not sharing an interrupt (IRQ) with anything else and try and get it above the USB bridges in order of priority.

Also ensure you grab the utility listed in that other thread which allows you to change PCI latency timing settings. In a quest for good 3D gaming speed, a lot of video cards will have a stupidly high priority for the video card when it is just doing DAW work. Turning this down will help. It may be as simple as the video card grabbing too many resources when it attempts to scroll the screen and update the confidence waveform recording.

If none of that works, then I would go ahead and back everything up and re-partition the hard drive into an OS + Apps and an Audio Data partition. You can use something like Partition Magic to do this for you so you don't have to reformat and stuff about.

If you still have no joy, do a test install of a clean version of your OS and install only Sonar. Install all the latest drivers for sound/video etc. and re-test it.

Good luck!

Q.

[Bulls Hit]

Originally Posted by powderfinger

Yup. Downloaded that. It's what helped getting latency down, but still having the random crackle problem......I'm going to go ahead and try the PCI scheduling from the Cakewalk thread along with the defrag. I hope that helps.

Have you tried increasing your latency again - increasing the buffer size?

That could make it less pop-prone