Record it hot!

[fenix]

Why?


1. Better audio resolution. Recording it at a low-medium level is pretty much like recording in 16 bit. Take advantage of your 24 bits, you'll have more dynamic range.

2. I'd rather add gain with my preamp initially rather than having to add gain with my L1 (to hit the limiter) or other similar plugs.

3. Aren't most meters calibrated so that when you hit red, you are not really clipping? (I'm not saying hit the red, but the occasional red you won't hear distortion, expecially with quick spikes such as drums).

4. If you record it hot, you'll have less noise due to dithering.

5. If you record it hot, your main buss will be hot, thus less gain will need to be added at mastering stage resulting in a less noisy master.

Am I right?

[lysis]

sounds good to me. where do i sign up?

[goldfish]

1. If its distorting, then thats out the window. Distorted recordings are a LOT harder to process than quieter recordings. Hiss would be inevitable but that can probably be taken care of better than nasty digital distortion.

2. You're right. Generally Pres amplify better than a digital solution and sound nicer doing it. Just not too loud, as above

3. Depends what you mean by "most meters" Generally speaking digital desks are calibrated that way, but if youre using an analog desk chances are that its got a range of about -40 dB to about +5dB. If you distort coming out the mixer the signal going into the sound card/whatever will be distored before that records it, so you have no chance.

4. Yes, but again as long as it doesnt distort.

5. In a word, no. If you have a very dynamic subject (like drums) mastering will need to compress them. This will add the gain that you just said you wern't going to have.

As an overall thing, you would probably find it harder to mix afterwards as you probably know a load of high level tracks over each other amplify way over 0dB, and again if they are very dynamic tracks then you have to reduce the gain overall.

If youre recording things like an orchestra playing clasical music which is VERY dynamic, you need to record it fairly quiet or you might distort when it gets loud. If you record at a reletivley low level you can always compress and bring up the level afterwards.

only my opinion, recording isnt an exact science

[HangDawg]

I've been tracking alot lower than I used to. I try to keep the peaks at -6db or lower. The results have been much cleaner mixes in the end.

[Blue Bear Sound]

Originally posted by fenix
1. Better audio resolution. Recording it at a low-medium level is pretty much like recording in 16 bit. Take advantage of your 24 bits, you'll have more dynamic range.

I disagree.... at 16-bits, it made more sense to keep the overall levels withint he top 6dB to maximize resolution, but with good 24-bit converters, it's a non-issue.

Originally posted by fenix
2. I'd rather add gain with my preamp initially rather than having to add gain with my L1 (to hit the limiter) or other similar plugs.

True - minimize the digital processing (which means fewer digital caluclations, which means less round-off error that messes with the sound quality.) Again, much less of a concern at high resolutions (ie 24-bit)...

Originally posted by fenix
3. Aren't most meters calibrated so that when you hit red, you are not really clipping? (I'm not saying hit the red, but the occasional red you won't hear distortion, expecially with quick spikes such as drums).

Not necessarily - you can't make any assumptions about where the manufacturer calbrated the clip-point - you simply have to know your rig.

Originally posted by fenix
4. If you record it hot, you'll have less noise due to dithering.

No - not really.... dithering is applied to mask the digital artifacts that occur at very very low-levels - nothing more.

Originally posted by fenix
5. If you record it hot, your main buss will be hot, thus less gain will need to be added at mastering stage resulting in a less noisy master.

If you mix analog, and you record your tracks too hot, you'll overload the returns on your console. If you mix digital, and the s/w algorithms didn't provide enough resolution for the summing processes, you'll overload the digital mix buss.

Again, it's all a question of knowing your own rig and where the optimum levels are -- it's not something you can make general statements about that apply to everyone.

[mixsit]

"If you mix analog, and you record your tracks too hot, you'll overload the returns on your console. If you mix digital, and the s/w algorithms didn't provide enough resolution for the summing processes, you'll overload the digital mix buss."

Well put BB.

Originally posted by fenix
2. I'd rather add gain with my preamp initially rather than having to add gain with my L1 (to hit the limiter) or other similar plugs.

"True - minimize the digital processing (which means fewer digital caluclations, which means less round-off error that messes with the sound quality.) Again, much less of a concern at high resolutions (ie 24-bit)..."

...Except when you load up on a stack of hot tracks and you have to remove gain to stay out of trouble -no better or worse than having to add gain.
Record at reasonable levels that your gear works well at.

"Again, it's all a question of knowing your own rig and where the optimum levels are -- it's not something you can make general statements about that apply to everyone."

Oops. He covered that well already too.

[goldfish]

Originally posted by Blue Bear Sound
I disagree.... at 16-bits, it made more sense to keep the overall levels withint he top 6dB to maximize resolution, but with good 24-bit converters, it's a non-issue.


True - minimize the digital processing (which means fewer digital caluclations, which means less round-off error that messes with the sound quality.) Again, much less of a concern at high resolutions (ie 24-bit)...


Not necessarily - you can't make any assumptions about where the manufacturer calbrated the clip-point - you simply have to know your rig.


No - not really.... dithering is applied to mask the digital artifacts that occur at very very low-levels - nothing more.


If you mix analog, and you record your tracks too hot, you'll overload the returns on your console. If you mix digital, and the s/w algorithms didn't provide enough resolution for the summing processes, you'll overload the digital mix buss.

Again, it's all a question of knowing your own rig and where the optimum levels are -- it's not something you can make general statements about that apply to everyone.

Good to know someone experienced agrees with me Very well put

[chessrock]

I don't like to record particular hot or cold.


In fact, I prefer tracking warm.

It's a new technique developed by forum regular, Seifer. Theory is warm tracking = warm mixes. By tracking warm, your finished product will sound somewhat akin to tracking with D.W. Fearn mic pres on to a Studer at 15 inches per second.

[HangDawg]

Originally posted by chessrock
I don't like to record particular hot or cold.


In fact, I prefer tracking warm.

It's a new technique developed by forum regular, Seifer. Theory is warm tracking = warm mixes. By tracking warm, your finished product will sound somewhat akin to tracking with D.W. Fearn mic pres on to a Studer at 15 inches per second.

Wow, I never made the connection. Thanks chessrock.

[The Seifer]

I've been tracking everything loud for like ever. It just seemed like the obvious thing to do because of the reasons stated earlier. Then I infuse the tracks with the tone of tubeness using a warmification process that invovles using PSP vintage warmer as a compressor/limiter wherever one is needed (bass, vocal, master butts)

[chessrock]

So what you're saying is your "warmification" process involves further DSP processing in the digital realm using a series of computer algorythms on a software plugin?

That's not warm, Seifert. That's just piling on more DSP (digital processing). It's "faux warm."

[cordura21]

I f you record all hot, wouldn't it add levels to the point that the sum of the waves will go beyond 0dBFS, hence distorting?

Or do the different envelopes on the different instruments avoid this (hence the importance of carving in the mix)?

If so, how do you guys calculate the initial headroom you need -say when you start with the drums- so you end with the hottest but not distorted possible signal after the sum of all tracks?

[The Seifer]

Originally posted by chessrock
So what you're saying is your "warmification" process involves further DSP processing in the digital realm using a series of computer algorythms on a software plugin?

That's not warm, Seifert. That's just piling on more DSP (digital processing). It's "faux warm."

UH all I am saying is that I use psp vintage warmer as my main compressor/limiter because I like it better than the one that came with Sonar. Whatever!

[chessrock]

Oh, I see. My mistake. I thought you said something about infusing your tracks with the tone of tubeness.

My apologies.

[The Seifer]

Originally posted by chessrock
Oh, I see. My mistake. I thought you said something about infusing your tracks with the tone of tubeness.

My apologies.

Well the psp vintage warmer does that as well, but it's more like an added bonus on top of just having an awesome compressor.

[jfrog]

I tend to agree with the concept of recording on the hot side...putting as much signal in my recorder as I can without clipping. However, I have noticed that on my Fostex VF08 as soon as the "clip" LED lights (sorry, no needles) I've got distortion. There's no gray area there. So, instead of trying to get the absolute hottest signal, I back off some - (kind of warmish hot, somewhat above tepid) Whatever the incremental benefit to recording at the absolute hottest level possible is way more than offset by blowing a track with unwanted clipping.

[Blue Bear Sound]

Originally posted by The Seifer
I've been tracking everything loud for like ever. It just seemed like the obvious thing to do because of the reasons stated earlier. Then I infuse the tracks with the tone of tubeness using a warmification process that invovles using PSP vintage warmer as a compressor/limiter wherever one is needed (bass, vocal, master butts)

Exactly the type of nonsense I've come to expect from you.....

Could you BE any more clueless?

[The Seifer]

could you?

[Son of Mixerman]

Originally posted by Blue Bear Sound

Again, it's all a question of knowing your own rig and where the optimum levels are -- it's not something you can make general statements about that apply to everyone.

Yup, I totally agree.

Where is the link on gain staging???

The whole premise of running totally hot is like running along the edge of a cliff with a blindfold. Outside of clipping issues there are other issues like finding the sweetspot of a preamp. Some preamps may not be clipping but the amount of distortion induced from pushing it TOO hard is worse. Clipping can be obvious and therefore you can retrack if you didn't catch it. But if its distorting and you don't catch it, each track you run too hot stacks up and soon you've got this grunge that no "warmth" plug can fix. Ive come to expect a certain amount of noise in my analog system and I know where not to go to avoid the nasties. Noise can be helpful when you understand how much and where. It sometimes can glue stuff like a dither. Imagine that?

There are no rules....



right until you clip


SoMm

[Blue Bear Sound]

Originally posted by The Seifer
could you?

Yes - I could... but it would be a huge stretch to get down to your level....

Apparently, you wrote the book on idiocy......

moron.......

[The Seifer]

All I said was that I record as loud as possible without clipping. I usually get my peaks to about -1dB at the most just to be safe. Is that wrong? (hint: no)

then I said I use psp vintage warmer for a compressor/limiter. Are compressors not used in the production of music? (hint: meat)

[Blue Bear Sound]

Originally posted by The Seifer
All I said was that I record as loud as possible without clipping. I usually get my peaks to about -1dB at the most just to be safe. Is that wrong? (hint: no)

Not wrong, simply an ill-informed choice to make.......

You also went into that whole "toneness" nonsense......... and "nonsense" is being extremely polite...

[The Seifer]

Well when I record things quiet the noise from my fake amp or from a mic is too loud, and will just get louder if I boost the signal after it is recorded. Recording loud and using a noise gate triple slams my noise floor in the face and I'll only have to turn down the tracks once they are recorded instead of boosting them (and the noise).

I probably described it poorly but I'm totally right trust me

[Blue Bear Sound]

If you've got that much noise, then there's a problem at the source.

[chessrock]

Originally posted by The Seifer
Well when I record things quiet the noise from my fake amp or from a mic is too loud, and will just get louder if I boost the signal after it is recorded. Recording loud and using a noise gate triple slams my noise floor in the face and I'll only have to turn down the tracks once they are recorded instead of boosting them (and the noise).

Help me here, Seif. I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt. I really am. But this is just nonsense.