Alright Fellow woodworkers...

[Michael Jones]

Help me out here:
How is this type of paneling done?
It looks like a solid piece of wood with a rabbit routed through it.
But that seems like it'd be awfully heavy.
The rabbit... or is it a dado? is probably at least 1/4" deep... maybe 3/8" and probably at least that wide.

Could a body use a quality plywood, and route those in there?
Or is it done differently?

[Michael Jones]

Here's another picture:

I'm seeing this A LOT lately.
This is at the Hyatt Regency in Houston, Texas.
I stayed there a few weeks back.

[Michael Jones]

This was at the Hyatt in Chicago.
You can kind of see that type of paneling in the background on the fireplace. Just... not the same rich wood as at the one in Houston.

Is there a name for this type of treatment?

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

Hello Michael, I've done tons of those. Literally. They are assembled. That way they can edgeband each panel. It is simply a 3" plus or minus wide cleat, with either a veneer or laminate on the surface, that is fastened to each side of the "reveal"on the back of the surface panel. That way they can make "loose joints". The surface panel is usually 3/4", thats why the reveals look so deep. They are NEVER routed. Unless it is a 1/4" x 1/4", and usually these are along an edge, and are called a "quirk". They do that where a panel butts to a wall. It is very easy to do. And frankly, it would look absolutely beautiful in your studio. If you need help, I've detailed at least 10 miles of paneling such as these. Some in diagonals, with each diagonal a different veneer, and grain direction, and finish. Some of these were 4' square, with the diamond points perfectly aligning to the backs of fixtures. You can see lots of my work in Macys in I believe Sweetwater? Tex....I think. Been awhile. Anyway, its easy. What is hard, is cutting the panels perfectly square. That is a trick, but you could have a shop with a panel shear or panel saw do it. What you need is a detailed layout of your walls and design. BTW, the best looking veneer for this type of work, and is used by most designers, is Anigre, or Pearwood. Some use RIFF cut oak. Any STRAIGHT and tight grain. Mahogany is a BITCH to finish, cause of the large expanse of open grain. Hence the use of Anigre. Anyway, thats the skinny. BTW, the first pic is Anigre.

fitZ

[Michael Jones]

Cool! Rick, I was hoping you'd see this and chime in! I figured it was right up your alley.

You don't think you could cut those (perfectly square) with a table saw? Then, if you had to, clean it up with a joiner?

[c7sus]

I worked in the executive suites of Crocker Bank in L.A. in the late 70's and every room in the placed was matched walnut. All done by old german carpenters from Columbia Showcase. Imagine the entire veneer of an ancient walnut installed sequentially around an entire vast office space. Unfucking real. Same treatment in each individual suite for the officers of the bank.

That look is golden.

You can get veneers like that drilled for slot resonators too. That's how they did the walls in the theatre at EMP. They put wood framing up, glued fiberglass against the drywall, and installed cloth covers and the veneer onto the frames. Looks cool and does treatment too.

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

One other thing Michael. USUALLY, these type of wall panels are compleatly assembled on "fixture" walls, that are manufactured in the shop, so they can fasten the panels to the studs on the back side with either cleats or pocket bored holes. IF they have to go on existing walls, the reveal cleat acts as a furring strip.(better question resonance) Along the bottom and top, a continuous strip of cleat allows for fastening to the existing wall, and then a continuous FLUSH base and crown is siliconed over the fastening mechanism. The base is usualy just strips of MDF with the veneer in a horizontal direction. Same at the top, which acts as a modern "crown, but not always. This is VERY precision work. Looks great if the the cleat is laminated with GLOSS BLACK laminate prior to assembling, You must drill each fastening hole THROUGH the laminate, prior to assembly also. BTW, this sort of design has been in vogue for over 100 years. Very classic, yet ultimately contemporary. The trick is detailing, and quality finish over EXELLENT veneers. The real clue comes from the "FLITCH". They MUST all come from the same log, or they will finish different, and on large walls, mismatched panels stick out like a sore thumb. IF you have dreams of doing this, call a veneer supplier and specify how many square feet you need from ONE flitch.
fitZ

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

Then, if you had to, clean it up with a joiner?

Sure. If your table saw is adjusted good. The trick is to get the first 90 degree side perfectly square, and make sure the fence is perfectly parallel with the blade. The width of the reveal also allows for slightly out of square panels also, although, IF you had 200 linear feet of it, progressivly out of square panels will eventually drift the pattern. That is a total NO NO for professional work. Hence the use of panel saws with a tolerance of .002". But 30' or so is NO BIG DEAL. Especially if your reveal is 1/2" or 3/4" wide, which looks FANTASTIC!! And you can edgeband the panels by hand with a household iron. I think this would look absolutely marvelous in your studio Michael. The real trick with the design, is figuring out the reveals in relationship to doors, etc. DETAILING of the reveal AT the joint junctures around doors is a real tricky affair, and considering the soundproofing details at door jambs etc, would really require complete EXACT field dimension detailing. This sort of stuff is USUALLY done at the outset of design, so horizontal and vertical ALIGNMENT of fixture and architectural elements all LINE UP in relationship to the reveals. The reveals ARE the element which gives this allure to the design. It is MASONRY in origin. Hence the reveals, as in blocks of stone. You can see this in many government and financial institutional architecture. Consideration for inside, outside corners are also a lesson in planning. The reveals MUST align right on through, and fastening in sequence, leveling as a whole, and other factors must be considered. This is NOT a fly by the seat of your pants affair. Every panel must be planned, and fastening locations, sequence of assembly, every connection type, clearances, junctures at ceiling, floor, corners, doors, windows, grills, electrical outlets and every single detail planned and double checked. for successfull completion. Don't hesitate to ask for help on this Michael, IF this is what your considering.

fitZ

[Michael Jones]

Thanks for all the information.
I am considering using it on the back and sides of a custom built console, and as "beauty plates"? around the soffit mounted speakers in the CR.
Then use the same type of wood (anigre you say?) for the slot resonators elsewhere in the studio just to have the continunity of element and design.

So, let me see if I have this straight:
You cut the panels (perfectly square ) out of an anigre veneer faced ply.
Band the edges.
Then cleat those together on the back side using a hardwood stock lumber (I'd probably use red oak due to its availibility).
And finish to taste.

Now how do you attach it to the wall?
Just bore a big ol' nasty hole through the front face panel and screw in a giant lag bolt? (Kidding)

So how do you attach it to the wall?
I know what a pocket bore is, but I'd worry about the whole panel ratteling with those.
I guess you could finish nail it through the revel cleat?

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

Then cleat those together on the back side using a hardwood stock lumber (I'd probably use red oak due to its

No, you don't need to use hardwood as the cleat. Since the face is all you see in the reveal, use the SAME or other MDF or plywood cleats. It can be the same specie, or laminate, paint or what ever you want. As to fastening the panels, thats what I was saying. Let me post some details illustrating the different ways you can do this with NO exposed fasteners. Around soffets and your console, will require smaller panels and reveals. That scale usually use 1/2"reveals. Give me a little time and I will post some fastening method details. That was the point of the loose base. A continuous cleat at bottom and top sticking out about 2" along the edge allows for fastening at the floor/wall junction and the cieling/wall junction. The reveal becomes apparrent when you then glue or pin nail a continuous base TO THE CLEAT, flush with the panel. Does that make sense? The panels are designed to float off the floor at 4" plus the width of ONE reveal. When a 4" wide base is then fastened in place ON THE CLEAT, it leaves a reveal between the base and the panel. Understand? Same at ceiling, although sometimes, a reveal is left at the ceiling/wall juncture, and is fastened through the cleat, as no one can see that high up, and back into a reveal. Same with panel sections that cover a long wall or section.
The reveal cleat is used as a fastening plate, and the next section covers the screws, leaving a reveal. Thats the whole point of the reveal. NO VISIBLE JOINTS, as the reveal is THE joint. Hence the sequence for fastening being important.
Michael, figure out you square footage needs. I have quite a few pieces of Anigre(all from the same flitch) veneers, in small to large pieces. The largest are about 4' square. If I have enough, lets make a deal One other thing. If you order veneer, be sure and order it with a "paper backer". Another thing. IF you plan on using lacquer, use a water based contact cement for gluing the veneers to the substrate. Or you may find pre-layed up MDF panels at a supplier. Well, time for work. Later Michael.
fitZ

[Michael Jones]

A continuous cleat at bottom and top sticking out about 2" along the edge allows for fastening at the floor/wall junction and the cieling/wall junction. The reveal becomes apparrent when you then glue or pin nail a continuous base TO THE CLEAT, flush with the panel. Does that make sense?

Yes. I understand now.
You just attach to the wall, using the top and bottom cleat, then a base covers the attachment points.

Could I use poplar as the cleats and just paint it black?
(That's a lot cheaper than red oak)

Why use a water based contact cement? Wouldn't a quality wood glue work just as well?

There's a really nice hardwood supplier here in Austin, I'm sure I can get what I need, but its doubtful that they'll have the material, from the same flitch in enough quantity. As long as the Console comes from the same flitch, then the beauty plates from a different flitch... I doubt it would be noticable.

[Michael Jones]

Anigre wood sample:



OMG!!
Is that gorgeous or what?!!
Look at the depth in that grain!
(sorry. wood gives me.... well, wood!)

On-line, a 4'x8' 10 mil, paperbacked veneer is nearly $200 duckettes.
(gulp!)
I'll call Paxton Hardwoods, and see what they have it for.

I got the framing inspection signed off on the studio, and I'm nearly done with the insulation, so sheetrocking and "Paint 'n' Polish" is right around the corner.
I'll be (sheet) 'rockin' by May 1st.

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

Hello Michael, so you found an Anigre sample on the net huh? Cool Now you see why they use it for almost ALL this type of work. Not all, but most everything I've seen is done in it. You know, a guy in the shop told me he was from Portugal, and before he moved to the US, everyone in the countryside used Anigre as FENCE POSTS !! Hahahahaha! If only they knew. But about 20 yrs ago, someone used it commercially for an interior. Caught on like fire. You won't find much hardwoods though. Almost all that is imported is made into veneer, as the grain only really shows like this. We had to use alder or birch to match to it when we needed hardwood edges etc.

Ok, for the glue, DO NOT use wood glue, as it takes too long to dry for a veneer. You can get bubbles in it. Only use water based contact on MDF. Probably, for the scale of your room, I would go with 1/2" thick MDF, and use 1/2" wide reveals. But naturally, its your choice.

Couple of more things. Imagine the cleating as a flat frame with the "studs" centered on the vertical reveals, and blocking(mullions) centered on the horizontal reveals, and overlapping at the top and bottom. See the drawing as an illustration. Usually, this "frame" is pocket bored at the joints, since its flat. Pocket boring solves TONS of problems. You can purchase a hand pocket boring jig at woodworking stores.
Another KEY to this work, is at outside corners, it looks great to carry the horizontal reveals right on through. That means, the panel above and below the horizontal reveal MUST be MITERED. Use a 1/2" wide piece of 1/8" masonite as a spline. You cut a slot(45 degrees on your tablesaw)perpendicular to the miter, right close to the heel. On both pieces. Then glue the mitered/splined pieces togeather prior to assembly. You ALWAYS start the assembly sequence in each direction FROM an outside corner.

Those columns in the third picture are a perfect example. We did TONS of column enclosures. Very simple. They assemble two sides vertically, with splines, leaving a loose joint(splined miter) untill they are joined around a column, usually concrete or steel, and the loose joints are glued and taped in the field. They build out a furring frame, that is attatched to the existing column, at top and bottom just as I told you. The panels are attatched to these via the "fastening cleats" Then they silicone the mitered base, and maybe a crown like the base, or just pin nailed or screwed through the top cleat, which is assembled in such a way to allow a reveal at the ceiling the same width as the rest of the reveals. Simple really. But such an awsome look when done.

Well, thats about it, unless you have some other questions Michael. Check the pics out. I'tll take 3 posts to attatch them. This is kind of a complicated design, but will illustrate the concept, I think. I'll post some sections tomorrow. I'm tired.

fitZ

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

heres a close up, at the top. See the reveal between the "crown" and the panels, and the crown and the ceiling?

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

And one at the base. These concepts will allow all sorts of details and design.

[Michael Jones]

Rick, thanks for the details.
That's pretty much how I pictured it.
I'll get in touch with you when I can actuall start building them. Lots of things have to happen first.

Where the cleats butt up against each other... how do you join those? Biscuits?

[Amped]

You might also try Fine lumber off of Rutland, they have some pretty unusual exotics.

[Michael Jones]

Fine Lumber huh?
I'll have to look into them.
I usually go to Paxton Hardwoods because they're on my side of town.
I'm about a mile and a half west of the "Y" in Oak Hill... off 290.

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

quote:
Where the cleats butt up against each other... how do you join those? Biscuits?

Within one frame, that or pocket screws, or splines. or tenons.. take your pick. Hahahaha!
Ok, at the vertical joint, EACH assembly should have a cleat FINGER on one edge.
When an adjacent panel/frame assembly is butted up to an already positioned and fastened assembly, use construction adhesive on the overlapping cleat(behind panel. You should design assemble your frames with sequence in mind, so that each successive assembly, has a cleat hanging out at the vertical joint that will butt to the previously fastened frame, so as to slip BEHIND the already fastened assembly. This will hold that edge down, if you see what I mean. In otherwords, the assembly already mounted to the wall, has a gap behind it, that the cleat will slip into, and as it is already fastened from the back to the next assembly, once in place, is held there by the priviously fastened panel assembly. .....WHEW!! Thats hard to put in words.....a picture is worth....well, you know . Take a look. An elevation and 2 Plan sections. One of the first assembly, then the same joint of the next assembly.
fitZ

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

Michael, this looks like a lot of work. Thats cause IT IS!! Hahaha! Thats why they charge about $1000 per linear foot. And considering the cost of the veneers, thats cheap. Pocket boring your frame is the best way. Also using construction adhesive with screws, to fasten everything to the wall. Heres a section of the already fastened panel.

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

Heres the last one. One other trick. Usually, most of the frames are the same for linear footage of wall. Therefore, they would build a jig on one or two sheets of mdf. Pre bore all the parts, and assembly on the jig, kept everything square and straight, and uniform.

fitZ