. . .yet another patchbay question

[tlp]

patch bay setup: I have a Re-an 48-point patchbay in my rack but have no idea how to set it up properly. I have all my signal processors ins and outs connected to the top, back jacks of the first 16 points and thats all. There must be some way to connect my Mackie CR1604 to it, as well as my processors, but I can't find any setup info. If anyone could help out I'd really appreciate it. If I can work this out I'll write up an FAQ for the setup if its needed - I'm surprised there isn't one already. There must be many people out there with similar problems to mine.

[This message has been edited by tlp (edited 12-06-1999).]

[loudnaybor]

AMEN !!!
I'm taking a break from setting mine up right now. It's become apparent that there are different ways that this can be done. I've got wires, manuals and little PC cards laying all over the frickin' place.
A FAQ that included things like "What are Normalled, Half -Normalled, Split and Isolated ?", "Which patch points do I have to Normal ?", etc. would be really nice. Maybe a couple of example diagrams too.
Unfortunatly, for me, it will be too late. I've got most of it figured out now. Mainly what I've figured out is that I need to go out and buy a whole bunch MORE cables....AHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!

[S8-N]

Ed... That gave me a headache. To hell with patchbays... I'll stick with my shitty software FX.

S8-N

[drstawl]

Ed, thanks for that symposium on Patch Bays.
I needed that! I'll have to read that a few more times to understand it until I actually own one and can try it for myself. Almost makes me wanna go out and get one to clean up this ugly mess of cables on my floor that needs to be detangled more often than I have to defrag my drive. But let's get down to the nitty gritty. Aside from convenience and aesthetics, and maybe wear and tear on your jacks and your sanity, doesn't the cleanest signal come from avoiding the patch bay entirely? I don't have any fancy pres so I need all the help I can get in the signal preservation department.

[tlp]

Well, thanks to everyone who replied to my query! Talk about being overwhelmed! I'll chew on it over night, make a pile more cables and have a go at reconfiguring my pesky patchbay on the morrow.

[Fishmed]

Most mixers have mono sends and stereo returns for effect. Some FX units require signal for both inputs to process stereo outputs.

Here is a variation to Ed's setup:

Equipment:
8 channels for mixer and tape.
2 stereo effects processors.
1 single channel compressor.

1-16: Connect as described above.

17: (Unnormalled) hook Aux/FX Send 1 to the top and Aux/FX Send 2 to the bottom.

18: (Normalled) FX unit 1 inputs; left on top, right on bottom.

19: (Normalled) FX unit 2 inputs; left on top, right on bottom.

20-21: (Normalled) On the top is output of FX 1 and on the bottom is Aux/FX Return 1. Use 20 for left and 21 for right.

22-23: (Normalled) On the top is output of FX 2 and on the bottom is Aux/FX Return 2. Use 22 for left and 23 for right.

24: (Unnormalled) Connect a single channel compressor (or some mono processor); input on top, output on bottom.

Say you want to use FX Send/Return 1 and FX Unit 1. Connect a patch cable from the top jack of 17 to the top jack of 18. Because 18 is normalled, the signal is also sent to the bottom of 18, allowing both inputs of the FX unit to receive a signal. Now you can also use the FX Send/Return 2 with FX unit 2 for a whole other effect process.

Again this is just a variation from Ed's setup. With patchbays there are so many ways you can use them. It all depends on your mixer, recorder, outboard gear, and how you use them together. I have found more ways to use my gear from the use of patchbays. Use your imagination and try different combinations. Find what works best for you.

[This message has been edited by Fishmed (edited 12-07-1999).]

[loudnaybor]

SERIOUSLY COOL, GUYS !!!!!
The only thing that I've done differently so far is instead of plugging my ADAT sends and returns into the bay, I just ran the channel inserts to the bay.
I haven't noticed any noise yet, but I haven't tried every possible combination. I did buy decent cables and they're all short, so maybe I'll get lucky and not have a problem.

[CMiller]

There is a great little book that explains how to hook up and solder a patch bay and other necessary wiring projects.

"How to Set Up a Home Recording Studio"
by David Mellor

I've never seen an explaination of how to set up a patch bay so easy to follow. The rest of the book is ok, but the patch bay stuff is well worth the price of the book.

[CMiller]

I just checked Amazon.com and they tell me that the book is out of print. It's a shame, the advice is pretty easy to follow. Sorry!

[gulleyg]

I was so confused after reading this thread that I decided to sell all my studio equipment and go back to a cassette 4-track. Ok, just kidding. What I really decided to do was go check out some patchbay manufacturers' websites and see what they have to say. I found a great reference at Hosa's website...
http://www.hosatech.com/PHB.html

Here, you will find a link for the instruction manual in PDF for their patchbays. It has a nice tutorial in it about patchbays and the different kinds of connections associated with them.

GG

[Steath]

Originally Posted by sonusman

Hey S8-N, I am giving another class here.....

Your path bays come "half-normalled" which is perfect for several applications. Unnormalled will be used for some applications. Fully normalled will not be used at all. So here is the deal.

The purpose of the path bay is two. One, the make a normal signal route for you. Two, to give you the ability to access that signal path to have the option of going somewhere else with the signal with or without returning it to it's destination. Sound confussing? It might but I will explain.

In a "normalled" configuration, the top and bottom jacks are connected together. This would be used to say go from the output of your console to the input of the tape deck. You don't need to do anything to complete this connection except to hook the cables up to the back of the patch bay. The proper way of doing this is the plug the output of the console to the top jack, and the input of the tape deck to the bottom jack.

Now, you can use a patch bay to run from the output of the tape deck to the input of the console. You would do this by connecting the ouput of the tape deck to the top jack and the input of the console to the bottom jack.

Now that you are all connected, you can start using the patch bay to insert something in between the destinations.

Let's say that you are tracking and you feel that you need to hook up a peak limiter before you get to tape. All you would have to do is on the front of the patch bay that is configured for console to tape deck, take the top jack for whatever channel you need the limiter on and run a cable from that channels top jack on the patch bay to the input of the limiter. From the output of the limiter, you would heek up a cable to the bottom jack of that channel on the patch bay. Vola!!! You have now inserted a limiter into the signal path.

You may notice something though. The limiter will not be inserted untill it's output is connected to the bottom jack on the patch bay. That is because the "half normalled" connection at the patch bay that connects your console output to the input of the tape deck is not broken untill something is plugged into the bottom jack on the patch bay.

So, let's say that not only would you want channel one on the console to go to track one (you already have this hooked up on the patch bay by following the above wiring) but you also want to send that track to something else like a drum module or something. Well, you can access that tracks source from the console via the top jack on the patch bay without affecting that source from getting to the tape deck. You see, the top jack on from just gives you access to the source signal. The bottom jack is an interrupt to the destination. using them both acts like an insert. Cool!!!

Next. Un normalled.

Usually you use unnormalled configuration for signal processors such as compressors, gates, limiters, etc......Unnormalled means that the connection is not made between the top and bottom jack on the patch bay. The reason for this is because processors don't like to have to output feeding back to the input. So, you have to have a way of accessing the input and output of the processor without the two being halfnormalled.

Usually (and this is the case with all the above named patch bays in this thread) you unnormal the patch bay by simply taking the curcuit board and turning it upside down. It is that simple. Now the output of a device will not feed the input. Actually, by doing this the input feeds the output which is okay.

So let's say you have a Re an 48 point patch bay, one 8 track machine, two stereo processors, and one stereo effects processors. Here is what you would do to make it all fly on the same patch bay.

Tape output's 1-8 of the console would go to the top jack (on the back of course) 1-8 on the patch bay. Input's 1-8 on the tape machine would go to the bottom jack(you got it, on the back) or the patch bay. Bam, 1-8 is all hooked up. The outputs of the console will go to the input of the tape deck automatically without any patching.

Next. Output's 1-8 on the tape machine would go to the top jack 9-16 on the back of the patch bay. Tape return 1-8 on the console would hook up to the bottom jack 9-16 on the back of the patch bay. Bam!!! Now your tape deck will automatically go to the console without any patching.

Next. 17-20 on the patch bay need to have their curcuit boards turned upside down. Now, you would use 17 and 18 for channels one and two of the first processor, and 19 and 20 for the second processor. Remember, processor input to the top jack, processor output to the bottom jack. Bam, processors are working.

Next. Take your aux sends one and two from the console and go to the top jack 21 and 22 of the patch bay and the effects unit input will hook up to the bottom jack of 21 and 22. Bam, automatic effects sends from the console to the effects unit without patching. Next, effects unit left and right out to top jack 23 and 24 on the patch bay, and whatever you would normally use for a effects return on your console to bottom jack 23 and 24. Bam, instant effects return.

So, if you wanted to compress track one before going to tape, plug in a cable from the top jack of one and run it to the top jack of 17 (left channel of your first processor) and hook up another cable from bottom jack 17 to bottom jack 1. Bam!!! Your compressor is "inline".

Now let's say that you are mixing instead and you want to compress track one.

You would hook up a cable from top jack 9 to top jack 17, and another cable from bottom jack 17 to bottom jack 9. Now the compressor is in between the tape deck track one and the console's tape return one.

While mixing, you could run a track directly to a effects processor just by tapping into it's input's and output's just like above.

You could plug an instrument like a keyboard directly into an effects processor and run it to to mixing board, or to the tape deck.

Get it??? You have all of your input's and output's on a jack where you can access it, and all of your normal connections you need to make are already made for you for a normal tracking or mixing environment. Cool!!!

Geez, I otta right a manual!!!

Ed Rei
Echo Star Studio www.echostarstudio.com

Thank you Ed Rei for this.
I received a patchbay this past Christmas and the instructions that came with it leave a lot to be desired. Since Christmas I have been looking all over the internet for some kind of help on what to connect where.
I'll have to go over this a few more times, and I may have a question or two, but you answered a lot of what I have wondered about.
Now maybe I can get this to work right.
Thank you.
Sylvia Steath

[Steath]

I do have a question.

My digital recorder has four inputs.
Ed's document said,

(quote) Tape output's 1-8 of the console would go to the top jack (on the back of course) 1-8 on the patch bay. Input's 1-8 on the tape machine would go to the bottom jack(you got it, on the back) or the patch bay.(/quote)

By console, are you refering to a Tape player or tape recorder?
Or is the console a digital recorder?
If I have only four inputs can I use only four inputs on the patchbay?
Or do I have to find some way to double them up?
The answers are sure to be obvious, but I'm afraid to do anything because I don't want to short my digital recorder out.
Any help will be tired.
Thank you.
Sylvia Steath.

[Middleman]

Man, this was a blast from the past. I think Ed was referring to a mixing console or mixer.

[Steath]

I've been looking for six month for some indepth information on how to connect a patchbay and examples.
It's very hard to find anything.
Thanks, Middleman.

[sweetnubs]

slight corrections for sonusman: A half-normalled patchbay is a configuration where the bottom front jack is normalled to the top front jack and it retains the ability to split the signal from the top front jack. Therefore in your example by inserting a cable into the top front jack to your limiter you would be splitting the signal to the limiter while still retaining the connection to the the bottom front jack. However if you plug the output of the compresser to the input to the bottom front jack you will break the normal (on those cheesy neutrik pcb type patchbays) and it will act as you imply. Kind of picky however it is important if you were returning to the limiter to a different channel: said instance the unprocessed signal would still exist and simultaneously with processed because the normal would not be broken. A normalled patchbay (as opposed to half-normalled) doesn't allow the signal to be split at the top jack.

"Unormalled" is usually referred to as a "isolated" or "open" configuration.

Generally also dynamics processors (compressors, eq, gates, etc.) are used through your console inserts. Inserts are "normalled" (insert send normalled to insert retun) on the patchbay.


Tip kiddies: Start saving some cash and learn how to solder. Wiring up patchbays is not cheap.

[Middleman]

I've been looking for six month for some indepth information on how to connect a patchbay and examples.

I organized mine with outputs from all my gear on the top row and the inputs to all my gear on the bottom. You can get fancier but its a good place to start.

Wiring up patchbays is not cheap

Man is that ever the truth. I just spent another $100 to hook up my LynxTWO soundcard, 4 in and out to my patchbay.

[Light]

It is most typical to have the top row be the guzoutas (outputs, sends, insert outs, etc ...) in the top row, and the bottom row would be guzintas (inputs, mic inputs, returns, etc ...).

Normals come in three basic varieties; normalled, also called fully-normalled; half-normalled; and non-normalled. A normalled connection are is a pair of jacks one top, and one bottom, which are connected until you plug in a patch cord to either jack, top or bottom. This is very useful when dealing with equipment which can not handle driving two things at once; for instance microphones can not usually handle driving two pre-amps at once. This is really the only time I would use a fully-normalled pair.

A half-normalled pair is almost exactly like a fully-normalled pair, except that the connection is only broken when you plug into the bottom jack. Therefore, if you plug a patch cord into the top jack, the bottom jack still gets the signal from the top jack. In the example below (which I will be wiring up myself in the very near future), everything with an arrow pointing to the pair is half-normalled. So for instance, I usually want my SR-16 going into my VS-2480. If, however, I wanted my Studio Quad to go to the line input the SR-16 usually goes to, I would not want to have the SR-16 still showing up there. A half-normalled connection insures this will not happen.

Non normalled connections are self-explanatory, or at least I hope they are. They are good for places where you do not want a signal to pass, but you need the points installed. For instance, I do not want the outputs from my Studio Quad showing up at my mult, so I have that connection non-normalled.

Mults are very useful and cool things. If you want a signal to go to two or more places, you frequently want a mult. All they are is a few points (usually four) which are wired in parallel. If you plug a signal into any one of the mult's points, it shows up at all of them. So for instance, If I want to send the same signal to three of the Studio Quad's inputs, so I can treat them differently, I simply patch from a guzoutas into the mult, and then from the mult to the three inputs for the Studio Quad.

It is, by the way, extremely helpful, even if you only have a few pieces of gear, to make up a chart of where your points are going to go before you start plugging things in; or in my case soldering.

Also, remember to LABEL EVERYTHING.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

[Middleman]

Here is another one front and back so you can see how I connected mine.

[pipelineaudio]

You most likely arent going to be able to find a fully normalled capable patchbay in 1/4". There is only one that I know of and its out of print.

Hi Sweetnubz long time no see

Since the 1604 isnt an inline console, here's how I would set it up, keeping in mind that you have two options on that patchbay, half normalled and non-normalled.

Patchbay 1:
top-mic lines from the studio rooms for 1-16 1/2 normalled(deadpatch on a split manually)
bottom- mic pre inputs to the console 1-16

be damn sure you turn phantom power off when patching mics!

Patchbay 2: youll need y-cords for this
top-console insert send 1-16 (1/2 of the y cord)1/2 normalled
bottom- tape recorder (or sound card) inputs 1-16

patchbay 3: this will be the other half of the y cord
top- Tape recorder (or sound card) outputs 1-16 1/2 normalled
bottom- console insert return ( other half of the y cord )

between patchbay 2 and 3, even though you dont have an inline console, you can kind of emulate one. You will use the mic pre as your send level to tape and the fader as your monitor mix FROM tape. In the event you want to do some bussing, you still can, and the easiest confusion free way would be to put signals to be bussed on a higher channel number than where your last track is ( if possible). But you can still buss from anywhere, by patching from insert send to insert return!

For the 24 unused patchpoints you now have open, strategically place buss sends, aux sends, returns ( 1/2 normal your favorite reverb input from a post fader aux send, and 1/2 normall the output to a stereo return). Half normall your soundcard or DAT machine's 2 track output to a 2trk tape return on the console. And thoughtfully lay out any remaining facilities, like fx, headphone sends and the like

Of course, this is a "take all comers" strategy. If its only for you, just draw the chain how you normally use it, and set the patchbay up so that you need to do NO patching to set it up.

[flatcat]

Here are some links to another forum where I described a couple of different setups I did:

http://www.vsplanet.com/cgi-bin/ubb/...c;f=9;t=002735
http://www.vsplanet.com/cgi-bin/ubb/...c;f=9;t=003430

Really, figuring this out just took me reading all my manuals over and over and over, getting some paper, writing all the inputs and outputs, and trying to think about the way I normally work (that's what I think of when I think of normalization). I felt really frustrated that I couldn't find many resources about setting up a patchbay, which was what led me to make those posts over at VS-Planet.

Hope that helps a bit.