Harvey- Recording Mandolin Question

[woodshedder]

Harvey- I thought you might be able to shed a little light on something for me.

You've probably heard Allison Krause--and if so, then you are probably somewhat familiar with the mandolin sound that is achieved on her albums. The sound in particular is from some of her earlier stuff--"Every Time You Say Goodbye." I think it is a very particular sound, and one that you don't usually find in most bluegrass recordings.

I picked up Kenny and Amanda Smith's new CD, and the mando sound on that CD is very similar to the sound on Krause's work. It made me wonder whether the sound was due more to the type/quality of mandolin, or the engineer, mic, signal chain, etc.

I know this is a shot in the dark, but do you have any idea how that sound is achieved?

Regards-

Woodshedder

[Harvey Gerst]

I'd hafta listen to those albums to hear what you're talking about, but just listening to Allison's live stuff, I'm betting you're talking of a mellower sound than most of the traditional bluegrass mandolin sounds.

Probably a large diaphragm mic pulled back to about a foot away or more, maybe even a figure 8 pattern. The picker probably picked away from the bridge to get more bottom end out, and I expect some judicious EQ to enhance the tone.

[woodshedder]

Hmmmm...a LDC. More flattering...less accurate That might really be a great place to start.

I was gonna try and describe the sound, but I didn't want you to think I was crazy. But what the heck. To me, the mando sound on Krause has a really mellow attack, but a really round sound, and a really really quick but smooth decay. If I could put the sound to a shape, it would have to be a fat drop of falling water: smooth and round in front with a quick but smooth decay (tail).

I will have to experiment with some Eq on other mando tracks.

Regards-

Woodshedder

[Harvey Gerst]

Sounds like I was close with my description of a more "mellow" sound. I think one cool trick would be (ya ready for this?) to replace the regular roundwound strings with flatwound strings. It'll take some of the edge off and smooth the sound. Possibly a little bit of felt near the bridge to shorten the decay, and then the other stuff I mentioned previously.

The flatwounds ain't never been done as far as I know, and I think it would sound cool as shit.

[Scriabin]

Without knowing the type of mandolin youre using its hard to guess how to get that tone. Like guitars, mandolins come in a variety of shapes and tones. I picked up a cheap fender mandolin for around $250 at GC. It sounded alright, although it was a bit bright. I used it for dense mixes when I need it to cut through the mix.
I've also had the opportunity to play an old gibson mandolin from the 1940s and its tone was MUCH more mellow. Start at the source. If the mandolin doesnt sound mellow to begin with, its going to be an uphill battle requiring an good deal of eq and mic placement to get a warm sound out of a bright mandolin.
When I needed an warm solo sound on my mandolin I ended up micing it from the front and back and blended the two. It gave less emphasis to the high end of the instrument.

[Flatpicker]

Originally posted by woodshedder
...I picked up Kenny and Amanda Smith's new CD, and the mando sound on that CD is very similar to the sound on Krause's work. It made me wonder whether the sound was due more to the type/quality of mandolin, or the engineer, mic, signal chain, etc.

I know this is a shot in the dark, but do you have any idea how that sound is achieved?

Kenny's an old picking buddy of mine. He used to kick my butt in guitar contest all over East TN. I'll drop him an email and see if I can find out what mics/setup he uses in the studio. I need to check in with him anyway...

His older CD, Studebaker is pretty good if you haven't checked it out yet. I sometimes listened “St. Anne's Reel” on there to get an idea of what a recorded bluegrass guitar is supposed to sound like.

[dudleys100]

I am not sure if this has much to do with it, but the same engineer (Gary pacsoza?) is with Alisson, Nickel Creek, and the Dixie Chicks. I know he carries around a couple of tube KM54's (small di) and he goes through a very clean "high-fi" pre (I can't remember the name off hand). I hear similar sounds on the Nickel Creek album and Alissons which I really like. Very clean rich and 3D. But I would put my money on the mandolin, mic technique, and the player if it were me. I did a bluegrass band this weekend and was searching for that tone. Although it turned out well, I would not say it is uyp to what I would eventually like, and in this situation I feel it was to do with the acoustics, mandolin, and the mics used, that kind of held it back. Although the Martin HD-35 I recorded sounded beautiful which leads me back to me putting my money on the Mandolin and micing technique.

[Flatpicker]

Originally posted by dudleys100
...Although the Martin HD-35 I recorded sounded beautiful...

What mics, pres, and positions did you end up using for that?

[woodshedder]

Flatpicker and Dudley- let me know what ya'll find out.

I'm recording a mando player in about two weeks. Although I've recorded him before, I'm just trying to get my ducks in a row to see if I can't get a more "signature" sound.

I really appreciate all the input and info.

And flatpicker, you are right about Kenny's picking. Man is it phenomenol.

And I am interested in getting that bluegrass guitar sound as well, although it is not as hard to achieve (IMO) as the mandolin sound.

Regards-

Woodshedder

[Chip Hitchens]

Originally posted by Harvey Gerst
Sounds like I was close with my description of a more "mellow" sound. I think one cool trick would be (ya ready for this?) to replace the regular roundwound strings with flatwound strings. It'll take some of the edge off and smooth the sound. Possibly a little bit of felt near the bridge to shorten the decay, and then the other stuff I mentioned previously.

The flatwounds ain't never been done as far as I know, and I think it would sound cool as shit.

That's a cool idea! It'd probably cost a fortune to make a mandolin set (unless someone knows where to get individual flatwounds). Might be cheaper to use silk and steel, but I'd love to hear flats on a mandolin.

[Chip Hitchens]

I just looked and Thomastik makes flatwound mandolin sets. I've never heard of using flats on mando before Harvey's post. Now I've got to try it out!

[Harvey Gerst]

Originally posted by Chip Hitchens
I just looked and Thomastik makes flatwound mandolin sets. I've never heard of using flats on mando before Harvey's post. Now I've got to try it out!

I didn't know there were flatwounds available for mandolins either. How cool.

[Tonewoods]

I've recorded quite a bit of mandolin (you can see the liner notes to "Mandolin Graffiti" here), and have tried all kinds of mics, preamps, and setups, and I just gotta say what a big fan I am of the Shure KSM32 on an F5-style mandolin...

The definition is there, the air is there, and the mic seems to capture that low-end bark that I've had a hard time getting with past favs (KM84, U47, a modified B&O, and even an SM57 for awhile)...

I place it about 4" or so from where the neck meets the body of the instrument...

Try it...
Curious to hear what you think...

[pdlstl]

Originally posted by Tonewoods
...and I just gotta say what a big fan I am of the Shure KSM32 on an F5-style mandolin...

Tone,

I've been using a 4033 on my Flatiron F. I've been very pleased with the sound but have never had the opportunity to use the Shure you mention.

Have you tried the 4033 on F styles?? And if so, how does it stack up to the KSM32?

Humbly in search of the Holy Grail,

Earl

[woodshedder]

Great info folks! I have so many new things to try...
Flatpicker, you heard from Kenny yet?
Tone, Ima give you a listen soon.

Regards-

Woodshedder

Edited-
Just tried to listen, Tone- your listen link is down.
Tried directly from the song page. How do I navigate Ampcast?

[Flatpicker]

Originally posted by woodshedder
Flatpicker, you heard from Kenny yet?

Nope. I think he's playing in Roanoke with Skaggs tonight. You should have driven down and caught the show!

[Tonewoods]

"Have you tried the 4033 on F styles??"

I haven't...
Tried some other SDCs...
I really like the Gefell M300...nice mic, very reminicient of a KM84...

The KSM32 gets that low end woof on a good F5, though...
Really works for me....