Anyone know where I can buy a good quality wax cylinder?

[Kevin Deschwazi]

The following is a quote from Billy Childish (some of who's music I like a lot). Please note that I don't neccessarily share his opinions (i don't have adequate knowledge of music recording/production), but I'd really be interested to hear what some of you people who dedicate large parts of your life to recording music make of comments like this.

"I advocate mono over stereo. Stereo, after all, is only a gimmick based on the idea that, as we have two ears, we can have two speakers and flog twice as much junk to the mugs.

The valve is also preferable to the transistor. The transistor is superior to digital. Analogue recording is better than DAT. Analogue gives character to sound and DAT destroys it. Digital recording has been hyped so as to flatter the egos of the witless into believing they need to be able to hear a mouse fart on The Beatles’ Sergeant Pepper’s album (which, incidentally, is the Beatles’ worst LP, not their best). The most authentic recording ever was made in a field on a wax cylinder, or on a cassette player in somebody’s kitchen. Chart music is not the recording of an event, but a synthetic commodity produced in the same manner as a factory sausage. This kind of plasticising of life destroys the roots of what makes music worth having in the first place.

A synthesised bassoon is only meaningful as a substitute for a real one. The remastering, remixing and digital enhancing of old recordings is pathetic. One of the arguments used to validate this practice is that early recording artists did not have the benefit of more modern recording techniques. Applying the same argument to art, I suggest that all of Van Gogh’s paintings should be sanded down and redone with an airbrush. A painter can be cack-handed and not obsessed with showing off and still be taken seriously. Yet in pop culture only one standard “studio” style of recording is deemed permissible. If we take sound to be the musical equivalent of colour, then Eurobeige is the only pigment allowed."

Discuss

[mallcore pop]

Wow, he is SO HXC.

(hardcore, but I'm sure he knows that)

. . .cough, cough (BULLSHIT), cough. . .

[Jimbo Jones]

hey kev,
is it your opinion that seargent pepper's sucked or was it billy's?
cause i gotta disagree, SP rocked the world.

[stonepiano]

just my thoughts, mind you.

Originally posted by Kevin DeSchwazi
"I advocate mono over stereo. Stereo, after all, is only a gimmick based on the idea that, as we have two ears, we can have two speakers and flog twice as much junk to the mugs.

wrong. stereo is good.

Originally posted by Kevin DeSchwazi
Digital recording has been hyped so as to flatter the egos of the witless into believing they need to be able to hear a mouse fart on The Beatles’ Sergeant Pepper’s album

huh? flatter those who want to hear mouse farts? that's not why I use digital.

Originally posted by Kevin DeSchwazi
(which, incidentally, is the Beatles’ worst LP, not their best).

no. definitely not.

Originally posted by Kevin DeSchwazi
The most authentic recording ever was made in a field on a wax cylinder, or on a cassette player in somebody’s kitchen. Chart music is not the recording of an event, but a synthetic commodity produced in the same manner as a factory sausage. This kind of plasticising of life destroys the roots of what makes music worth having in the first place.

Have you heard a wax cylinder recording? They Might be Giants did one on Factory Showroom called, "I Can Hear You." Check it out for what kind of sound quality you can expect.

This whole paragraph is simply subjective and miseducated opinion.

Originally posted by Kevin DeSchwazi
The remastering, remixing and digital enhancing of old recordings is pathetic.

It's called nostalgia. It's not for everyone but we all have our favorite music and I for one find restoration processes remarkably interesting.

Originally posted by Kevin DeSchwazi
One of the arguments used to validate this practice is that early recording artists did not have the benefit of more modern recording techniques. Applying the same argument to art, I suggest that all of Van Gogh’s paintings should be sanded down and redone with an airbrush.

wrong. no one is suggesting destroying the original. What restoration does is create a new version of familiar material. Re-imagine it, if you will. Should we dwell on embellishing old recordings? In my mind, some tunes deserve it. I liked the beatles remixes.

Originally posted by Kevin DeSchwazi
...yet in pop culture only one standard “studio” style of recording is deemed permissible.

bullshit. there are people all over the world doing recordings in different ways. There's no one's stopping Billy from recording his way.

The fact that 99% of the world would rather hear, "mouse fart sensitivity" in their recordings rather than that which comes off the wax cylinder should be a big clue to billy as to why no one else records "his way."

Originally posted by Kevin DeSchwazi
Discuss

this guy sucks. Maybe his music is good but what a mope.

[faderbug]

at least he HAS an opinion

[Kevin Deschwazi]

Originally posted by Jimbo Jones
hey kev,
is it your opinion that seargent pepper's sucked or was it billy's?
cause i gotta disagree, SP rocked the world.

As I said none of this matches up to my own opinions. SP isn't my favourite but it's by no means my least favourite either.


I'd echo faderbugs comment. He has an opinion. It might be bullshit but it's an opinion and I don't think getting defensive and nasty does an opposing argument any favours. If you have genuine faith in your own beliefs on the matter then there is no need for this.

My feeling is that there are a lot of people out there who are a bit too precious about the recording process and not precious enough about music.

I think once the sound quality of a peice of recorded music is no longer something that draws attention to itself then you've got it. (I read that on this BBS somewhere before and have never forgoten it).

I believe the children are our future etc. etc.

[stonepiano]

Originally posted by faderbug
at least he HAS an opinion

Hey man, Hitler had LOTS of opinions too.

[Kevin Deschwazi]

So because Hitler had 'opinions' and he was evil that means it's fair to compare someone else who has an opinion, on a completely benign subject, with Hitler?

I don't get it.

[stonepiano]

And let me also clear up something.

I am not writing defensively.

I am merely challenging Billy's incredibly short sighted take on the art of recording sophisticated musical arrangements.

Recording is about a lot of different things. Sometimes, recording is about capturing the essence of a live performance, warts and all. Other times, recording is about arranging and building the ideal version of a song.

I, in case you couldn't guess, am less interested in capturing sloppy playing in low fidelity media than in building fantastic music that reaches beyond what simple reality holds us down to.

And since when is maintaining realism seen as a border across which audio engineers must never cross?

I just disagree. I would also hasten to guess that most music professionals would as well.

sounds a lot like bookburning to me.

Miles

[stonepiano]

Originally posted by Kevin DeSchwazi
So because Hitler had 'opinions' and he was evil that means it's fair to compare someone else who has an opinion, on a completely benign subject, with Hitler?

I don't get it.

That one was a joke.

[Kevin Deschwazi]

When I wrote about defensive I was referring to the guy who wrote Bullshit and pretty much nothing else. Make a contribution for goodness sake.
I thought your contribution was great. This was what I was hoping for when I started the thread. I don't know much. I love music and I'm trying to make my own music sound ok with a load of crappy kit and very little knowledge. I was just interested to see what you knowledgeable folks thought of these kinds of views.

All the best

Nick (my name's not really Kevin Deschwazi)

[TexRoadkill]

Billy should stick to subjects that musicians are good at like what is the best hair spray and how to keep your eye liner from smearing during a 2 hour set. If you want advice on the best way to fix a car are you going to ask a mechanic or a taxi driver?

Using Billy's logic a porno shot with a hand held video camera has more integrity then Gone With the Wind. I would agree that the content is more important then the means of capturing it but just because you use a simple or crappy technology to do the job does not mean the content suddenly has more value or credibility.

Usually people who rail against technology and production values are trying to justify why their stuff just doesn't measure up.

[noisedude]

Originally posted by Kevin DeSchwazi
Nick (my name's not really Kevin Deschwazi)

now you tell me ..................

oh well, it's my name too, but i spell it without a 'C'!

Regards,

Nik

[mallcore pop]

You talkin' to me?!

Originally posted by Kevin DeSchwazi
When I wrote about defensive I was referring to the guy who wrote Bullshit and pretty much nothing else. Make a contribution for goodness sake.

You really don't want that, trust me.

Originally posted by Kevin DeSchwazi
He has an opinion. It might be bullshit but it's an opinion and I don't think getting defensive and nasty does an opposing argument any favours. If you have genuine faith in your own beliefs on the matter then there is no need for this.

Defensive? No. Dismissive? Yup. This guy crams every recording myth for the semi-informed into two-and-a-half paragraphs, all with that annoying "I dare you to say otherwise" attitude, so what can I do except immediately call out bullshit.

I would have done it point by point (stonepiano did an excellent job), but I would have written bullshit after the first few statements, followed by eye rolls for the rest. Waste of my time and yours.

Anyhoo, opinions are one thing, opinions stated as fact are another. I'd like to know the methods and practices he used for his comprehensive, universally authoritative for all time, no tag-backs, freezes or force fields, research.

Of course, if he was being facetious, I totally agree with everything he said.

[mallcore pop]

Originally posted by TexRoadkill
I would agree that the content is more important then the means of capturing it but just because you use a simple or crappy technology to do the job does not mean the content suddenly has more value or credibility.

Usually people who rail against technology and production values are trying to justify why their stuff just doesn't measure up.

Yeah, what he said.

[Nik D]

Originally posted by noisedude
now you tell me ..................

oh well, it's my name too, but i spell it without a 'C'!

Regards,

Nik

Whoa!!! You're the only other Nik I know of! Awesome! Sorry to hijack the thread, so here's my 2 cents... If a mouse farts during tracking and there's only a wax cylinder to record it, did the mouse ever fart in the first place?
- Nik

[c7sus]

From what I gathered through a Google search I don't think the guy gives a damn about fidelity for fidelity's sake.

He seems much more interested in the fidelity of the SOUL of the music.

It's difficult to disagree with a guy that says popular music is a commodity.

It is.

It's prepackaged and sold and it might as well be sausage.

Give a listen sometime to the Folkway's American Music collection, recorded in the field by Alan and John Lomax. On the early recordings you can here the lathe in the background cutting the recording! Those recordings capture a folk music history that is long gone and died with the musicians. If not for those recordings we wouldn't have the faintest idea of American folk music from the early 20's and 30's.

I think from the passage above his bitch is about using technology to doctor the recording. You honestly think any of the big touring acts travel without racks of Autotunes??? Even Faith Hill is bound to have an off night. But NOBODY wants to hear THAT!

I know I'm one of the few DeadHeads around here, and say what you will about them, but when they sucked, they sucked for all it was worth.

And they never apologized for it.

But by not bending to use technology to cover up the fuckups, when they shined it was all them.

I think it points out a big problem in our modern society: the idea that everything has to be PERFECT all the time.

There's damned little soul in that. And when I've seen acts struggle through a set, often as not the crowd will get behind them and help get them back on track.

Music is about interaction. It's about reaching for that lick you've never been able to pull off. I'm as guilty as possible of NOT interacting with my music. Involving other people can be a huge pain in the ass! But the best music I've heard and seen was usually right off the cuff and improvised on the spot. Maybe it was a distillation of years of playing those licks, but you know you've had those magic moments when the players talking to each other through their instruments made your hair raise up on the back of your neck.

I feel fortunate that I've had plenty of those experiences. In arenas with 20,000 other people there watching, or around a campfire listening to a bluegrass band at a jam. Those are the best moments, when folks "grind diamonds out of time", as one old DH once put it.

[Kevin Deschwazi]

Originally posted by mallcore pop
You talkin' to me?!

Defensive? No. Dismissive? Yup. This guy crams every recording myth for the semi-informed into two-and-a-half paragraphs, all with that annoying "I dare you to say otherwise" attitude, so what can I do except immediately call out bullshit.

I would have done it point by point (stonepiano did an excellent job), but I would have written bullshit after the first few statements, followed by eye rolls for the rest. Waste of my time and yours.

Anyhoo, opinions are one thing, opinions stated as fact are another. I'd like to know the methods and practices he used for his comprehensive, universally authoritative for all time, no tag-backs, freezes or force fields, research.

Of course, if he was being facetious, I totally agree with everything he said.

yeah baby that's more like it

[mallcore pop]

[darksound]

Originally Posted by Kevin DeSchwazi

yeah baby that's more like it

Wax cylinders can sound good, they can sound bad, it depends on the weather, and the person making them. I make the cylinders from scratch, and record on them. They have a presence and character that is amazing. Don't get me wrong, they are not HI Fi, but they do record everything that a modern recorder does not. about the softest sound they record is a whisper. They certainly sound better than a cheap cassette recorder. There are still over 100,000 Edison cylinder PHonographs, pretty good for somthing that has not been made since 1929 (the last cylinder records were recorded electrically)

[Elmo89m]

Originally Posted by c7sus

From what I gathered through a Google search I don't think the guy gives a damn about fidelity for fidelity's sake.

He seems much more interested in the fidelity of the SOUL of the music.

It's difficult to disagree with a guy that says popular music is a commodity.

It is.

It's prepackaged and sold and it might as well be sausage.

Give a listen sometime to the Folkway's American Music collection, recorded in the field by Alan and John Lomax. On the early recordings you can here the lathe in the background cutting the recording! Those recordings capture a folk music history that is long gone and died with the musicians. If not for those recordings we wouldn't have the faintest idea of American folk music from the early 20's and 30's.

I think from the passage above his bitch is about using technology to doctor the recording. You honestly think any of the big touring acts travel without racks of Autotunes??? Even Faith Hill is bound to have an off night. But NOBODY wants to hear THAT!

I know I'm one of the few DeadHeads around here, and say what you will about them, but when they sucked, they sucked for all it was worth.

And they never apologized for it.

But by not bending to use technology to cover up the fuckups, when they shined it was all them.

I think it points out a big problem in our modern society: the idea that everything has to be PERFECT all the time.

There's damned little soul in that. And when I've seen acts struggle through a set, often as not the crowd will get behind them and help get them back on track.

Music is about interaction. It's about reaching for that lick you've never been able to pull off. I'm as guilty as possible of NOT interacting with my music. Involving other people can be a huge pain in the ass! But the best music I've heard and seen was usually right off the cuff and improvised on the spot. Maybe it was a distillation of years of playing those licks, but you know you've had those magic moments when the players talking to each other through their instruments made your hair raise up on the back of your neck.

I feel fortunate that I've had plenty of those experiences. In arenas with 20,000 other people there watching, or around a campfire listening to a bluegrass band at a jam. Those are the best moments, when folks "grind diamonds out of time", as one old DH once put it.

I was moved by that. Truly. Even though i disagree with a some. Like what you said about popular music being 'sausage' thats not true. If a band becomes popular and mainstream they havent changed and are worth no less then when they started. Take a band like Radiohead for instance. They have three albums that are hugely popular and have become more poppy sounding as they go. That doesnt make there music worth less. On the other side of the fence there are bands started for the soul purpose of commercialism. Everyone's favourite punk rocker Ashlee simpson would be one of these types. And when it comes to these people i disagree that they are like 'sausage' as well. I call them shit.

[Kevin Deschwazi]

Originally Posted by darksound

Wax cylinders can sound good, they can sound bad, it depends on the weather, and the person making them. I make the cylinders from scratch, and record on them. They have a presence and character that is amazing. Don't get me wrong, they are not HI Fi, but they do record everything that a modern recorder does not. about the softest sound they record is a whisper. They certainly sound better than a cheap cassette recorder. There are still over 100,000 Edison cylinder PHonographs, pretty good for somthing that has not been made since 1929 (the last cylinder records were recorded electrically)

Wow, this is an old thread! Thanks for your input, I've never used a wax cylinder to record in fact I've never been in the same room as one so I wasn't dismissing their use. I have a fair few of Alan lomaxes field recordings and I enjoy them very much.

[Kevin Deschwazi]

Originally Posted by Elmo89m

Take a band like Radiohead for instance. They have three albums that are hugely popular and have become more poppy sounding as they go. That doesnt make there music worth less.

Sorry, I just don't get that. Radiohead have released 6 studio albums. OK computer (their 3rd) doesn't sound any more 'poppy' than Pablo honey (1st) to me, in fact I'd say it's less poppy.
And their most recent 3 albums have moved very much away from the mainstream sound.

[Elmo89m]

im sorry i think ok computer sounds a lot more poppy then say. the bends or kid a and pablo honey..i guess we have differing opinions of poppy

[timboZ]

Originally Posted by Kevin DeSchwazi

Anyone know where I can buy a good quality wax cylinder?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...sPageName=WDVW

Less than 2 days left.