recording yourself versus recording others

[mrface2112]

this may be one of those "yeah, DUH!" topics......but i wanted some sympathy and support. ;-)

i've been recording myself for a while now, and obviously my gear and skills (both playing and engineering) have increased over time. however, i've also recently started recording others and hands down, their material always comes out better sounding that the stuff i record myself playing.

i'm sure part of that is the fact that i'm a perfectionist and my own worst critic and don't have an objective ear when it comes to hearing my own material. but part of it isn't that......i say this is a "duh" topic b/c when i'm recording myself, obviously i'm responsible for everything (and can't make adjustments on the fly) and when recording others, i'm just at the controls and listening (and making adjustments on the fly).

it's good for them (and for me), since they're paying me what amounts to chump change for the studio time, and it makes me really happy to be able to give them a good product for their money.......but it's also really frustrating, b/c you'd think that since i've got "unlimited" time in the studio, that i could turn out something as good for myself as i do for others.

maybe as Hagbard Celine said, it's a simple matter of "don't whistle while you're pissing....."

anyone else notice the same thing?


wade

[Blue Bear Sound]

Press a family member, girlfriend, or SO into manning the console for you while you're "creating".... or even better, a local colleague who's into sound like you are...!

[chessrock]

I think it's a problem with a lot of "indie" recording guys these days. They try to tackle too much.

I think it takes a very unique person to be a skilled musician. It's hard enough to do just that and to focus on it so as to be the best you can be. But so many people think they also have to be a world-class producer . . . and engineer, and mixer, and mastering engineer . . . and promoter.

It's just too many hats to try and wear and too many balls to juggle at once. At some point, you should really sit down and decide if you'd like to truly excell at any one thing . . . or if you'd rather just be a jack-of-all but master of none.

[Track Rat]

I enjoy and prefer to engineer and record myself. I like the control. Once a few years back. I had a friend I pressed into service to basicly arm a track and hit play/record while I was just going to concentrate on playing. He ended up burning over a some keeper tracks. Since then I trust NO ONE.

[Son of Mixerman]

When you record yourself alot of the time your so overly concerned with so many things that are unrelated to the song that the song suffers. I suffer the same side effects. I find that my songs turn out better if I write away from the studio and then record after I get a majority of the song done. Iv'e written quite a few songs and there are only a handful I like and it so happens those were ones written whilst in a band where there are other people influencing me by chemistry rather than verbal or written communication. Im my worst critic as well which often leads me to ask people how something sounds. Which to me is kinda funny cause I always get contradicting advice from people. I learned producer and engineering skills in the late 80's and early 90's and Im sorta stuck in that era skillwise which also tends to be frustrating.
Im a firm believer that recording other people helps you as a song writer because it exposes you to things you might not have thought of yourself. I need a local person to help me next time I start recording myself that understands basic gain structuring and fader riding.






Also having your kids laughing when your giving it your all... is distracting.



SoMm

[Chibi Nappa]

The problem with recording yourself is that mic placement is just so vital, and it can be very hard to place a mic yourself on an instrument you are playing, especially if its an acoustic instrument. I almost always record others.

[mikeh]

I've always felt the material I've recorded for other artists in my studio sounds better than my own recordings.

In part it is because I'm overly critical of my own singing, musicianship, producing and engineering. In part it is because I'm trying to do everything - and while I'm fair at everything I'm not great at everything. In part it's because when I work alone I can't get the engineer to agree with the producer who does not like the guitarist who really hates the singer. Mostly, it's because when I work solo, I don't have someone to bounce ideas with.

When I record an artist, beyond the obvious fact that the artist brings his/her sound & material to the table, they also bring fresh ideas and energy which motivates me. They often hear things I don't and have ideas on arrangements, mix levels, etc. that I don't.

I think most of us who record solo are limited by our abilities. Maybe we can engineer well, but we can't produce. We can play guitar well, but we don't hear great drum lines. We may have a great lead voice, but we can't hear harmony lines.

And yes, trying to find the sweet spot and have proper mic placement working alone is difficult at best.

[cstockdale]

It is indeed hard, but I am motivated by two discs I listen to on occasion:

1) Remy Shand: the way I feel. Neo-Motown soul from a white kid in his early 20's who recorded it in his parent's basement in Winnipeg Manitoba... every last detail done by him, every instrument, every knob, every fader.

2) Bob Mould's eponymous solo disc: as it says in the liner notes "Bob Mould is Bob Mould"... engineer, producer, drummer, guitarist, singer.


It can be done. ANd you must learn to appreciate which imperfections are the real character, and which imperfections are mistakes to be fixed. I am not there yet, but I will be... someday.

[chessrock]

Yea, but is your name Remy Shand or Bob Mould?

Kind of like when a drummer says he wants to take up singing, I'll ask if his name is Phil Collins. Or if he's a bassist who wants to sing: Is your name Geddy Lee?

If your answer is "no" to any of the previous questions, then you might reconsider.

[cstockdale]

Well, Bob Mould is perhaps an unfair one to use, because he has 20 odd years under his belt and god knows how many albumns out under Husker Du, Sugar and solo. But Remy is just a kid.

and assuming that you need to be superhuman to be a bass player and singer? I have seen numerous good bassists who are also great singers.

I am just talking about inspiration.

[stonepiano]

Originally posted by chessrock
It's just too many hats to try and wear and too many balls to juggle at once. At some point, you should really sit down and decide if you'd like to truly excell at any one thing . . . or if you'd rather just be a jack-of-all but master of none.

you could be talking about me here, Keith. You're scaring me....

I understand how you can see that. I'm sure you see this all the time. Personally, I think I'm heading away from performing towards writing and recording. Getting other musicians to do my songs. Basically, I want to be Steely Dan of my music.

Btw, that band broke up about two weeks after we set up at Moon Unit. It really was a great experience, though. Hope you didn't think you were wasting your time.

What a train wreck we were!

Miles

[chessrock]

Yea, but you guys wrote great songs, . . . and you had your own sound. That's rare. I also think it's a very under-rated concept to have a steady drummer who rehearses with you every time. As a musician, I've had the experience of the "part time drummer" thing, and it always seems better in theory than in practice.

Yea . . . I remember the days; I'm still a decent bassist, but I also used to write some good tunes. Then I kind of became obsessed with recording it so it would sound good. And of course, it was never good enough. Before long, I was spending more time learning how to track and mix . . . surfing the web researching sound treatment and microphones. Woke up one day and realized: I'm not a musician. I'm a freakin' audio engineer. I'm geekin' out over mic pres and room modes and I don't have a song left anywhere in me.

And I see the same thing happening to two of my friends. Seems like they're never up for jammin' anymore. They'd rather talk about the Royer mod they just did to one of their mics.

[cellardweller]

Originally posted by chessrock
It's just too many hats to try and wear and too many balls to juggle at once. At some point, you should really sit down and decide if you'd like to truly excell at any one thing . . . or if you'd rather just be a jack-of-all but master of none.

And the moral of this story is..

If you have a big head or small balls, you might be okay.

Kidding aside, you guys are scaring me. Whilst I absolutely suck at recording (still) it is becoming somewhat of an obsessive research project... I am always reading or searching for some answer to some question which I may or may not immediately require an answer to...

I think a re-examination of priorities may be in order, where to draw the line......?

EDIT** Upon further self-examination, I've decided. I'm going back to full-fledged musical creativity mode.

Can I borrow one of you guys studio?

[chessrock]

You guys should consider networking more with other musicians / recordists in your area. Get a buddy system going.

You can try mixing his project and he can mix yours -- that kind of thing. It would have to be a situation though, where each of you mutually respected the other guy's engineering/mixing skills and can at least tolerate their music.

[cellardweller]

The only musicians in my area are either too involved in their many pursuits, married away onto obscurity and servitude, or I just wouldn't want them in my house! Not that I am overly proud, I am actually quite a humble guy, but having your house broken into once by *"friends"* is enough to make anyone gun-shy!
They stole all of my guitars, amps, 4 track recorder, my kids VHS movies....,....... sorry what was the question...?

I have been looking though, it's very hard to find people in my area. I was in a band for a record of 1 week about a month ago. They had some questionable habits and strange tendencies. Not to mention the music just wasn't me, and they were not at all open to suggestion.


] [I]Sorry for the thread piracy...[/I

[Garry Sharp]

This is a seriously worthwhile thread - I'm in the "jeez, you've scared me" camp too.

But even though chess's thought was a very good one, cellard's last pot was also bang on topic - our guitarist came up with a guy who he said would help with recording so I could concentrate on bass playing - after I met him I wouldn't let him within a mile of my kit

[chessrock]

Originally posted by cellardweller
I have been looking though, it's very hard to find people in my area.

You anywhere near Chicago? Got any soldering or basic handyman type-skills? Do any web site design? These are things you can barter with for free recording / studio time.

I'll record whatever you want if you can help me build a diffusor, maybe a few mobile 703-type baffles, etc. Or if you could help modify some of my gear.

[mikeh]

chessrock,

I had to laugh at your comment "Woke up one day and realized: I'm not a musician. I'm a freakin' audio engineer. I'm geekin' out over mic pres and room modes and I don't have a song left anywhere in me"

I've been a musician since the mid 60's, stated recording in 68'. Started home recording in late 70's (2 track reel to reel dubbing).

Somewhere along the line I too turned into a gear slut, spending more time reading tech manuals and less time with an instrument in my hand.

Not long ago, I was on the phone with a musical friend (we've been giging/recording together for 30 years) and we were talk specs on mics, etc.

After my friend's wife overheard part of the conversation (related to frequency response, MIDI conversion and hard disk sampling rates she commented "I remember when you guy's use to talk about music" Ain't it the truth!!!!

[cellardweller]

Umm, yeah, diffusors.
Build them in my sleep.


But seriously, I am unfortunately here in central Illnoize.

Decayed-turd to be exact.

Sad thing is, I don't even have any of those old friends around anymore....

Mourn for He who dwelleth in the cellar...

[chessrock]

You'd think diffusors would be a really easy thing to make.

Just take a big board and stick a bunch of little wood blocks all over it in bizzare, haphazzard patterns and what not.

"Uh . . . yea, it's a diffusor. Seriously, it is."


Alright, my offer still stands to anyone close to the great city of Chicago. Free studio time if you can build Chess a diffusor. I'll give you the damn materials. I've also got a compressor that needs a balancing transformer installed in it's output section -- I have the instructions. Just very basic soldering. A couple of mic pres I would like to swap some of the opamp chips on. Basic stuff guys. Free studio AND Engineering time. And you can ridicule me the whole while:

www.moonunitsound.com

[cellardweller]

Where can I find a design/layout of how to build a diffusor anyway? I've looked around but haven't been able to find one.

[mikeh]

The most recent issue of EG Mag (I think it was EQ - may have been Electronic Musician) has instruction for a diffusor using accousitcal ceiling tiles. Seemd easy to make and a practical design.

[noisedude]

I'm a little scared now. I split my band up because I thought, "I can record by myself and if there's a demand for me to play I can get musicians together if I have to".

Scary. I haven't had a chance to record anyone else's stuff yet but as soon as I have I'll know whether the theory is true for me.

I want to be a musician. Really, I do.

[glynb]

Good thread. Made me think about the working on my own question and why sometimes it doesn't turn out as it would with a band.

Maybe its a question of investment in time. Say you have a 4 piece band, drums, bass, guitar, singer. Each of them has their own specialisation to concentrate on. So the singer brings along the words and say a chord structure and tune, the basic song, then the guys/girls set to work. If they rehearse and work on that song for 3 hours that actualy represents 12 hours of musician thinking/working time. If the meet up again a few days later and revise the song, maybe that ends up with 24 hours working on it (and that doesn't count the time spent actualy writing the basic song). I all that time the guitarist has spent 24 hours just thinking about the guitar part, nothing else, the bass player the bass part, and so on.

So ist it any wonder that the indie musician working alone often cannot come up with the same quality of recording as the band together. How many solo recrders can afford to invest so much of their time in a single song?

I'm not saying this is always the case, or always the problem, but it IS something we solo people need to think about and consider.

I have just finished recording a song that I wrote about 2 years ago. This is the third time I have re-recorded it and IMO each time I have refined and improved the recording, the sound & the arrangement. All in all I must have spent 6 weeks worth of evenings working on this song alone during the two year period (I played all the instruments myself/drum programs, etc). If I'd have had a band we could have got the thing done in 2 weeks tops and I would have had 3 other brains to bounce ideas off and act as quality control.

What I love about working alone is the total control, and no compromises or having to justify my ideas to others who might not 'get it'. What I hate is the amount of time it takes.

Makes you think, doesn't it?

[cellardweller]

Yes it does make one think...

Just had a friend move back from Chicago, he plays bass/guitar. A week before that I met a guy HERE AT WORK who plays drums AND has attended "Full Sail", has a computer with CEP, etc.

Things seem to come together, but alas for the ephemeral nature of these things...





but I still want a new mic...