Drums and drummers suck!

[monty]

Just kidding. Now that I have your attention I just want to say that I have new respect and admiration for anyone involved with percussion. I have sort of taken it for granted and not paid much attention as I have always been involved with other instruments. But since I have started to get serious about recording and doing as much of the instrumentation myself as possible, I can see how difficult (for me) and important percussion is. I get a lot of musical ideas but don't know where to begin with the percussion. I make pathetic attempts with a synth or drum machine or a midi sequence, and then I hear the drum art on the radio or cd's and tape and realize how guilty I have been for underating drummers. I've played along with drummers a million times but never had to get into it myself. An enlightening experience. Sorry it took me so long to see the light guys (drummers). I've changed my ways.

[Cooperman]

I think when listening to your fav albums it is a good routine once you're familiar with the songs to go back and listen to the album concentrating on each instrument. I've been doing this for a while, especially on drums and always find programming drums a piece of cake. You learn exactly what should go were and all the little things that make up what makes a good drum track

[monty]

Schmoe....sounds like you are an arteest.

[Schmoe]

AHHHHH, another one is enlighten to the great DRUM SPIRIT in the SKY. Anybody can almost program a drum machine, but notice, I said program. The real art is the art itself, drumming. You don't see anybody programming guitarist around do you? That's because that instrument is expressive, drums are the same way, you just got to be a drummer. Anyway, keep this in mind when writing stuff and wondering what kind of percussion to lay in. Rule of thumb: Intro's you can ad lib a little. In between verses, add one measure of something besides a straight beat. Choruses, stay straight on time. Lay a straight beat path throughout the whole song except for the parts I mentioned above. Once the basic package is laid, you can always change later. Some of the best drummers in the world are not flashy, but very easy and laid back. Watch any type of studio drummer you can, watch. They mark time and stay solid.

[Cooperman]

Schmoe, you make some good points and you make some bad points. I completely agree that there is nothing like having a real drummer but,

1) I am a guitarist and to learn how to play drums to the level that I want my drum tracks to be like would take a couple of years which is a problem as I want to record now.

2) Although your rule of thumb may work for you it certainly doesn't work for me. I like lots of fills and variety in my drum tracks. I believe your statement to be correct for "radio-style" pop/rock songs but for many other genres I believe your rule isn't particularly useful

3) As a guitarist recording my own music, I find the idea of using a real drummer
a) expensive - gotta mic up the kit
b) time consuming - gotta explain how you want the drums to go
c) impractical - programming gives superior editing power
d) painful - you have to talk to the drummer

4) To successfully progam a drum machine you have to have the very same skills a regular drummer has in that you have to find what needs to go where but without having to have a drum kit and without having to have the physical skill to play it. So therefore the only difference between myself and a real drummer is that a real drummer has the co-ordination to play on a real kit what I've programmed - yes it won't have as much "feel" to it but that's the price I'm willing to pay to have all the above benefits of programmed drums!!!

If you are in a band then yes, by all means use real drums... but, many of us here are "one-man bands" and I for one find progammed drum THE only answer.




[This message has been edited by Cooperman (edited 02-15-2000).]

[hixmix]

Drums are not my primary instrument either but I found it necessary to learn how to program them. It's well worth any amount of effort put into it. If you have even the most rudimentary knowledge of reading music(note values)you already have a big jump in programming.

I have this drummers book that has all these basic rhythm patterns and fills written out for all different styles of music. Basic one, two, three, and four measure patterns. I program the patterns into my sequencer, then I string the patterns together to form the basic rhythm track to my song. After awhile I began modifying the patterns and adding my own personal touches.

Also spend a couple of bucks and get a practice pad and some sticks. Try playing some of the patterns to get a feel for what you're programming.

[MrSong]

I'll jump in on this one as well. I've been programming drum machines and sequencers for years- I'm talking ten plus here! I've played with some incredibly talented session drummers- and since I suck at drums, I had to use either them or the machine. And I learned from these players- how they played, what their limitations were, how they applied their dynamics. And because of this, I am able to program quite proficiently. But, there's nothing- and I mean nothing- that can compare with the real thing. You're fooling yourself if you believe otherwise. The reason is simple: You want your music to be expressive- and although you can program a lot of expression, you can't program emotion and random textures. I've recorded over 750 songs, and only a few- and I mean only a few- were the sequenced drums believable enough to where you didn't notice them. That's an important key: if you- the artist- can still hear a drum machine playing instead of your whole song (if it kinda sticks out) then you need to either re-sequence or get that real drummer in there! In some of the bigger studios I've been in, the sequenced drums were layered with real drums. Good luck to you- I hope you make millions with your music!
Chad D. Austin

[loudnaybor]

Real drummers are great if you have the resources to deal with a kit(mics and a decent room) but I've never had my drum machine drink all my booze and hit on my girlfriend. I guess there's alway a trade off.

[Buck62]

I got sick of boozin', unreliable drummers several years ago, so I bought a drum set and taught myself to play.
Another thing that gave me an incentive was that I got my left hand pulled into a machine at work and had multiple breaks in my index and middle fingers and couldn't play the guitar for almost 2 years. It really sucked, but made me expand my musical horizons.
Anyway, I tried to get my friend to do the drumming on my cd (he's awesome), but he's too busy with his new baby and other stuff, so I did all the drumming myself.
I may not be Keith Moon (far from it)... but I just like the sound and feel of real drumming. It's too bad that drummers are so unreliable.
I don't know where the hell I'm going with this.... I just had 3 cups of coffee, so I'm rambling here.
Oh yeah... I guess the point is that if you got the $$$, patience, and the room for the kit, doing your own drumming and/or percussion is worth the trouble if you want that "real" feel and sound.

[monty]

Buck62...You still play guitar?

[Cooperman]

I think we can all agree on the fact that if you've got the time, patience, money, space, mics etc... then real drums will always sound better than sequenced drums. However, using a $20000 vintage Neumann mic will always sound better than using one of the many low price large diaphragm's. But very few of us are going to rush out and get the Neumann. While many of us have and will rush out to get Rode NT-1, NT-2's, AT-4060's etc

It's all really a matter of nessessity. What I need and what I want are two completely separate things. I want real drums, but don't have the talent or the money to do them myself, and I don't have the mics, space or desire to use a hired drummer. But I still need a drum track... that cannot be avoided... so the answer for me at this stage is sequenced drums.

[Buck62]

Monty...
Yep, I still play guitar, although I can't fly through those lead guitar solos nearly as good as before the accident. I leave that up to my partner.
I still write, play rhythm guitar, bass, drums, keyboards, and sing.
You can't stop inspiration and determination.
The cd will be out in about 2 months.

[dan]

I heard this quote somewhere:

Spill beer on a drum machine and its worthless. Spill beer on a drummer and he works better. +

[MrSong]

DAN:
Hear, Hear!
Too damn funny.

[flashback]

Where did this RANT on drummers come from - Are y'all BASS players!?! I would never stoop to your level by talking about waiting for guitar players to get tuned, let alone stay tuned; finding tempo, let alone keeping it; knowing more than 5 lead patterns; let alone how to transpose them - I'll just let it alone.

Rather - on to the point of recording options for drummers. As a garage band drummer, I like using Roland V-Drums and acoustic cymbols (cymbols mic'd with two condenser mic's). The Roland V Drums output 4 very digital channels (kick, snare, toms, percussion), which coupled with the stereo analog cymbols, mix into a Mackie 1202 I use as my drum submixer. If I am laying down drum tracks for a project I direct-out the 6 channels into 6 ADAT inputs. If recording a live gig I mix down to a stereo out to give the other guys the 6 ADAT inputs left.

By the way, "even a drummer" can tell the difference between programed drum machines and the real thing - just like you could tell the difference from all the guitar, bass & keyboard synth patterns stored in my drum kit and a real player.

[muddogsrule]

Matter of perspective and experience I think when it comes to unreliable musicians. I've had at least 4 different guitarists in my bands over time and not one of them can commit to a regular practice schedule or show up on time. My bass player and I end up writing most of the mterial while waiting for the guitarist to show up.

[Track Rat]

You must have waited 6 years for him to show up.

[zbert]

So, how do you get that drummer off your front porch?
Pay him for the pizza!

[travelin travis]

i know this thread is about drumming but i've found the same to be true with playing bass. locking down a tight bass line ain't no easy task for the inexperienced. i'm a guitarist btw.

[BentRabbit]

Originally Posted by Track Rat

You must have waited 6 years for him to show up.

Six and a half according to the date of this thread...

[muddogsrule]

Just under 6! But hey, this looked like a fun thread to resurrect!

Q: What's black and blue and laying in a ditch?
A: A guitarist who's told too many drummer jokes.

[Bulls Hit]

Why do drummers leave their sticks on the dashboard of the car?


So they can use the disabled space without getting towed

[BentRabbit]

Originally Posted by Bulls Hit

Why do drummers leave their sticks on the dashboard of the car?


So they can use the disabled space without getting towed

That shit's funny right there....

[episg]

Whats the difference between a drummer and a drum machine?

With a drum machine you only have to punch the information in once.

[dwdrums801]

Originally Posted by muddogsrule

Matter of perspective and experience I think when it comes to unreliable musicians. I've had at least 4 different guitarists in my bands over time and not one of them can commit to a regular practice schedule or show up on time. My bass player and I end up writing most of the mterial while waiting for the guitarist to show up.

I have the same problem only with vocalist...my guitarist are usually only 20 min late the most, Bassist is always 5 min early.