more drum recording......

[jono10]

How much do you guys gate the kik drum and snare, if at all? I'm fairly new to recording drums and have found a 5 mic combination that works for my ears,( top (bug mic) and bottom (Sm57)snare, kik (condenser, old but works good) and two conderser overheads, wide apart and panned hard left and right with a bit of high end eq to eq pick out the hats and ride) however, i get a lot of bleed and cant make my mind up if its doing harm to the overall sound of the kit. i gate the kik mic but it the settings have to be very severe (could that b the mic) and sounds very choked even with a longish release, and sounds like cr@p on its own, however, its ok in the mix and definatly adds to the punch.

any advice would be helpfull to all of us trying to get a decent sound out of a kit.

[mixsit]

I like to gate either one if it's needed. The UlatraFunk plug has a nice lookahead feature as well as some 'punch-eq' options that work pretty cool for 'in the box'.
It doesn't sometimes solve problems as much as you might expect but does alow you to push things in the right direction in a few different ways.
Don't forget to try flipping phase on both the kick and snare tracks vs the overheads. It's in that combination that sets the final tone.

Wayne

[jono10]

Don't forget to try flipping phase on both the kick and snare tracks vs the overheads. It's in that combination that sets the final tone.

Wayne [/B][/QUOTE]

Flipping phase? could you elaborate.......please..? Thanks for the reply BTW

[mixsit]

It's inverting the signal 180 degrees. As an example, take a mono signal, copy it. If one is inverted, as the voltage swings to +, the mirror (un-inverted) would swing -. The two combined would cancel out. Same as having the same polarity on you speakers, otherwise common sound from both cancel.
Two mics at differing distances from any source do a similar thing due to their time arrival shift, but it varies with frequence and distance -never exactly 180'. The polaritity flip is a crude way to pick the best combined tone option.
You can switch it on a balanced mic or line level cable by swapping pin 2 and 3 prior to tracking, or on most mixers after tracking.
Hope that helps.
Hope I didn't screw it up too bad.

[jono10]

Thanx mixsit, i just had a look in the manual of my mixer and theres an option to do this very thing. Id seen it b4 but never knew what it was for. I'll give it a go later, we're doing some more work on the drums this week, i'll let you all know how i get on. This is a great forum, thanks to all those who know so much and give it so freely and genuinly. One day i hope to know enough to give a bit back where i can, thanks you guys.

[Chibi Nappa]

I prefer the sound of un-gated drums for most styles of music. However, sometimes I want a distinct reverb on the snare. In that case, I gate the snare to keep the reverb off of everything else. I usually have two mics on the snare (top/bottom or top/shell depending on the song) and most of the time I'll only gate and add reverb to one of them and leave the other one un-gated and un-reverbed to tie the whole kit back together. If I need any extreme snare eq I will also restrict that to a gated track.

You can also do some fun special effects with gates. Try throwing up a large diaphragm condenser 6 feet out in front of the kit a little bit higher than the bass drum in addition to all of your regular drum mics. Use the kick drum mic to trigger a gate, but apply that gate to the room mic instead of the kick drum mic. EQ the room mic to really bring out the bass drum. Not very natural, but fun.

[Peter Lancaster]

Jono10,
If you are trying to mix in a natural sounding way be careful with panning overheads really wide. If you want the drum kit to sound like you are standing on top of it then that's ok as long as you use hardly any reverb on it. Normally you would position the drums towards the back of the mix using reverb. Imagine what size room your reverb is simulating and imagine where in the room you would be standing to hear that sound. Now how wide would the kit sound? Any wider than that in your mix and it sounds unnatural.

Start with the overheads in the centre (with the kick and snare tracks on) then gradually pan them out. As you do so you'll get to a point where the snare (which is being picked up by both overheads) will get slightly weaker as its sound is being spread across the stereo field. If you bring the panning in slightly that will be as wide as you can get without adversely affecting your snare sound. You'll also need to pan the snare slightly more towards the overhead which is closest to it. Fade up the overheads with the snare track on. If the snare seems to move its position slightly then the snare track panning needs to change.

Obviously if you don't want a natural sound none of that applies.

I don't religiously gate snare and kick. I do sometimes use a gated sound, but mostly I work with ungated sounds. Careful mic positioning, mic choice and good drumming technique can help reduce the need for gating or make accurate gating easier to perform without it being detrimental to the sound of the kit.

Personally I would work on mic positioning, eq, panning and compression to get a good kit sound then start seeing what you can do with gating. Trying to use every tool you've got to get the best sound can be confusing as it can be unclear as to exactly what effect each thing is having on the mixed sound. If you can't tell from listening to a mix of all the mics that the snare or kick needs gating then they may not need it. That shouldn't stop you using gating as an effect if you want to.

Pete.

[jono10]

Thanks again for the replies. I'm not after any sort of effects and certainly dont want gated reverb!!!!!!!argggh. After Id posted my first question, i went to mix the track with the wide panned overheads and did find i needed to bring them in (un-equally) to keep the snare in the center of the stero spectrum. i still got a nice spread on the cymbals and the snare sort of "came back from the back of the mix" When i added the snare mics themselves it brought the whole thing together and i'm very happy with the results. I just wanted a basic kit sound, no special snare sound, no thumping kiks and a good overall sound. with your help i've got near, considering the kit isnt the best in the world. Thanks again all who posted a reply

[Chibi Nappa]

Originally posted by jono10
Thanks again for the replies. I'm not after any sort of effects and certainly dont want gated reverb!!!!!!!argggh.

I think you misunderstood what I wrote. I wasn't talking about gated reverb. I was talking about gating a snare drum, and then applying regular reverb to the gated snare track. It keeps the reverb sounding natural, but it also keeps the reverb off of the rest of the drum kit.

[Bulls Hit]

Originally posted by jono10
however, i get a lot of bleed and cant make my mind up if its doing harm to the overall sound of the kit.

You could try going back to basics and using only 2 mics - 1 kick, 1 snare. How does that sound? What's missing - hats, cymbals, toms? Now add an overhead. Did that catch the missing stuff? If not, change the position & try again, or maybe add another mic.....You see what I'm saying? Try and capture the drum sound with as few mics as possible. Sometimes more mics just give you more problems

[jono10]

your post have given me much to think about, i'll be sure to post the results the advice given. you guys are great. i wish i could buy you a beer each.