What the hell is pre delay?

[Aloha]

I hear this term used all the time, I don't have a clue what it means. Also what does YMMV stand for?

[ChristopherDawn]

Originally posted by Aloha
IAlso what does YMMV stand for?

Your mileage may vary.

[Track Rat]

Your mileage may very on pre delay.

[stonepiano]

"Pre-Delay" refers to a parameter on a reverb unit.

When you create a reverb, you can allow the wet signal to start a small amount of time after the initial sound plays. This space of time between the dry signal and the ensuing processed signal is called pre delay and is measured in milliseconds.

It's absolutely essential for clarity of vocals and is also useful on acoustic guitars. If you have a reverb plug-in or outboard effect, listen to a vocal with 100ms of pre-delay and 0ms of pre-delay.

at 100ms, you should hear the dry signal followed by a distant version of the same sound.

at 0ms, you should only hear the distant signal.

I use it at least a little whenever I use reverb. of course, YMMV as to using it.

milesmaxwell

[The Green Hornet]

Yo Bedrock PianoMan:]

Thanks for the succinct explanation of "pre-delay."

I always thought "pre-delay" was fooling around before marriage.


[I couldn't resist]

Green Hornet

[stonepiano]

well hornet.

I must admit that I made my answer up but I suppose it could be accurate.

[grinder]

Pre-delay, is one of the parameters for adjusting the size of your "room". The opposing wall is going to sound farther away as you add more pre-delay.

[stonepiano]

No, it's not, grinder...

check this article by Shailat for a clearer explanation.

Pre-delay - Sets a time delay between the direct signal and the start of the reverb

[Chibi Nappa]

I'd like to add that it is very helpful to time your pre-delay with the tempo of your music.

For example, you could put pre-delay on the snare drum reverb. If you time it wrong, you can get what sounds like two snare drum hits instead of one (extreme bad case there). However, if you time the pre-delay with the tempo of the song you can get a situation where the snare drum hits, there is silence, and then the snare drum reverb starts exactly at the same time the next high hat is hit, masking the second "attack" from the snare drum reverb. You get your cool drum reverb, but you don't wash out your snare sound as much.

Play with the pre-delay time until it sounds right, and always do it with the song playing and every instrument in the mix.

[grinder]

Originally posted by stonepiano
No, it's not, grinder...

check this article by Shailat for a clearer explanation.

Pre-delay - Sets a time delay between the direct signal and the start of the reverb

Sorry, after reading the article, I still stand by my original post. There wasn't anything in the article that goes against my statement, either. In fact, here is a quote from it that supports what I said.

A little pre-delay on Brass can simulate the typical feeling of hearing a brass section in a hall. First you hear the direct sound, then you hear the room reverberation.

[The Green Hornet]

Yo Magma of Piano:}

I knew we had something in common - you are from Chicago or in it, and I was raised there.

Used to hang out at the Chicago and Oriental Theaters for the stage shows -- saved my nickles and saw a live drama every once in a while -- really enjoyed the live performance by Spike Jones way back.

Best act I ever saw was Danny Kaye -- stayed in the Chicago Theatre for about six shows -- my mother thought I'd left town.

cheers and salute

Green Hornet

[Blue Bear Sound]

Originally posted by stonepiano
No, it's not, grinder...

check this article by Shailat for a clearer explanation.

Pre-delay - Sets a time delay between the direct signal and the start of the reverb

Grinder is right...... pre-delay is the parameter you can set to control the time it takes for the sound source to strike the nearest boundary (ie wall) and start reverberating. This is essentially defining the room size.

If you set a pre-delay of 10 mS, this means that your sound source is about 10 feet away from the nearest boundary, or, in other words, your source is in between walls that are 20 ft apart (10 feet on each side of the source.

[Dyson Steel]

Are you all 3 not saying the same thing in different ways?

This space of time between the dry signal and the ensuing processed signal is called pre delay and is measured in milliseconds.

If you set a pre-delay of 10 mS, this means that your sound source is about 10 feet away from the nearest boundary, or, in other words, your source is in between walls that are 20 ft apart (10 feet on each side of the source.

A little pre-delay on Brass can simulate the typical feeling of hearing a brass section in a hall. First you hear the direct sound, then you hear the room reverberation.


I'm trying to learn. Not get in the middle.

[mixsit]

Originally posted by Dyson Steel
Are you all 3 not saying the same thing in different ways?

This space of time between the dry signal and the ensuing processed signal is called pre delay and is measured in milliseconds.

If you set a pre-delay of 10 mS, this means that your sound source is about 10 feet away from the nearest boundary, or, in other words, your source is in between walls that are 20 ft apart (10 feet on each side of the source.

A little pre-delay on Brass can simulate the typical feeling of hearing a brass section in a hall. First you hear the direct sound, then you hear the room reverberation.


I'm trying to learn. Not get in the middle.

Part of what's going on is that in many verbs pre delay is simply an additional delay set in front of the whole verb effect. Fine so far. But some of this 'delay' prior to the first reflections can be already built into the prog as part of the 'size' parameters.
Lex puts it (roughly); predelay is not for a 'natural' sound, more for tempo effect.
If you set for a large hall or room, you'd expect delay on the first reflections would be built in. Setting predelay for 'feet to the first wall' might be more real on smaller patches. For tempo on large sizes, I'd say all bets are off then.
It's very usefull moving the wall back and expanding smaller rooms, and pushed, making them 'slap' a bit.

Wayne

[stonepiano]

Originally posted by Blue Bear Sound
Grinder is right......

tell that to shailat.

[stonepiano]

Originally posted by The Green Hornet
Yo Magma of Piano:}

I knew we had something in common - you are from Chicago or in it, and I was raised there.

Used to hang out at the Chicago and Oriental Theaters for the stage shows -- saved my nickles and saw a live drama every once in a while -- really enjoyed the live performance by Spike Jones way back.

Best act I ever saw was Danny Kaye -- stayed in the Chicago Theatre for about six shows -- my mother thought I'd left town.

cheers and salute

Green Hornet

Kick beans, GH!

I'm actually big time theater fan as my parents grew up working at all the big time theaters in town as ushers. They worked the Shubert, the Auditorium, The Oriental, The Goodman (which, I'm told was a tiny player at the time) and others I can't remember, are renamed or are gone now.

You also mentioned Spike Jones and his City Slickers. Funny you should bring him up but my father introduced me to his stuff when I was a kid. What a tight band he led! I still love his "Ghost Riders in the Sky" sendup and "Pal-Yat-Chee" western, not to mention the old classics, "Cocktails for Two" and "Der Fuhrer's Face."

Is your music as colorful as your taste? You got some links to your stuff? I would love to hear what you do.

Miles

[grinder]

Originally posted by Dyson Steel
Are you all 3 not saying the same thing in different ways?

I never disagreed with anything that StonePiano said, only added to it and defended myself when he suggested I was incorrect. Stone said, Pre-delay - Sets a time delay between the direct signal and the start of the reverb (which is 100% correct), yet suggests this has no correlation to room size. Ok, let me try to explain, what Blue Bear already said. As the opposing wall gets farther away (imagine the room getting deeper) the delay between the sound and reverb will increase, since it takes longer for the reverb to bounce off the wall and return to your ears. Where in Shailats' article does he say anything contrary to my statement. His quote, that I put in my previous post, supports what I'm saying. So explain to me how I'm wrong.

[grinder]

P.S., Here is a good reverb article by Ed Rei, from the mixing forum. Make sure to read the part about pre-delay.
http://www.homerecording.com/bbs/sho...threadid=39918

[stonepiano]

The fault for the confusion really lies with me.

I apologize, grinder. I should not have discounted your alternative understanding of the same principle.

You are not wrong. I simply thought Shailat's way of explaining it was clearer.

Nobody's wrong, in fact.

Aren't you glad you asked, Aloha?

[chessrock]

It's not that tough if you think it through: Every room in your house has it's own pre-delay . . . every room you visit has a pre-delay. When you're in a very small room, the echo you hear is instantaneous; you can't hear a distinct echo that comes after the inital sound -- they just blend together (which implies that the predelay of that room is less than 40 ms). On the other hand, when you go to a reception hall, you can clap your hand and hear a distinct time delay between when your hand claps and the ensuing echo.

It's easier to reason out when you think of pre-delay as a natural phenomenon and not just a reverb parameter.

[mixsit]

Originally posted by chessrock
...It's easier to reason out when you think of pre-delay as a natural phenomenon and not just a reverb parameter.

Cool.
Now let's do Post Delay.

[Dyson Steel]

Thanks Every one. I apperciate the different explainations. Kinda like getting help looking at a globe from different view points. This is a great place to learn.
Guess I will start playing with my processors again.