Urgent: Tascam MS-16 / MSR-16 / ATR-60 ?

[gilwe]

Urgent: Tascam ATR-60 / MS-16 / MSR-16 ?
Finally I came across two machines for sale in a reasonable price.

The first is a Tascam MSR-16 (16 track, 1/2", 15 ips) which is in a fairly good condition (but well used). I can get it along with a few 1/2" reels , a patchbay and all dedicated cables plus a MTC syncronizer for about 400$ .

The second, which looks like a GREAT bargain, is, listen -
Tascam ATR-60 (16 track, 1", 15/30ips) which is well maintained, and has a new head, plus a spare head, for 500$ ! (no tapes)

The choice seems much clear to me, ATR-60.

But, can you think of anything I should know before buying any of them, or does the ATR have any disadvantages that makes the MSR-16 preferable ?

And how about the Tascam MS-16 ?

(ASAP)

Thanks !!



http://www.geocities.co.jp/MusicStar...cam_msr16s.jpg

http://www.fam.org.pt/web/paulomiran...mATR60-16B.jpg

[regebro]

Well, tape cost is a disadvantage. 1" is more expensive that 1/2".

But a pro 16 track 1" for $500 with new heads? It's cheap enough to be suspiscious. That's rather what the ATR-60 2-track would go for.

Or actually, it may be cheap enough NOT to be suspiscious and just get it anyway.

[gilwe]

Well, what should I check when looking into it ?

[regebro]

That it works.

Otherwise I'm no expert on Tascam things.

[The Ghost of FM]

Originally posted by gilwe
Well, what should I check when looking into it ?

If you are unfamiliar with analog reel to reel recording equipment, there are a multitude of things to learn about and check on a deck.

On the ATR60-16, you will want to purchase a roll of Quantegy 456 tape and take it to the sellers premises to do a test recording on all 16 channels to see if all 16 channels record and playback a consistent signal.

You will need a source signal to record as well and this can be a test tone generator that can feed a +4db balanced signal. (remember the ATR60-16 has only balanced in and out connections on the back of it! This will be an important factor too, in choosing a mixing console to go with it.

Once you have the tape loaded on the machine you can also check to see if all the transport functions operate normally and properly in regards to pulling tape in REPRO/REC modes and in fast winding and spooling modes.

Look for flat spots on guides that may be worn out and in need of replacement. Same for the pinch roller; check it for signs of excess hardening and oxide contamination which will appear as discolored, non black rubber.

Considering the abnormally cheap prices you are receiving on these machines, it might also be advisable to bring along a technician who does house calls and pay him for his time to do a professional inspection on sight with you as you don't really know all the pitfalls to watch out for and could easily miss many expensive repair problems with untrained eyes.

If the heads have already been replaced on the ATR60-16, this should tell you that this is a very high millage machine as it takes an enormous amount of hours to wear the heads out. This might mean that many other parts are also well worn and ready to go to and might explain why the seller is willing to let it go so cheap because he knows that other parts need replacement that he hasn't gotten to yet.

Budget for maintenance either way and good luck!

[gilwe]

remember the ATR60-16 has only balanced in and out connections on the back of it! This will be an important factor too, in choosing a mixing console to go with it.

So I guess my Yamaha 1604 live mixing console won't fit it...

It has a balanaced XLR input, a TRS input and a TRS insert for each channel, but does have XLR outputputs for any of the 4 groups and for the main stereo out.

Can it be used for this purpose ?

[regebro]

It's more a question of levels, and the ATR-60 is all +4db, while your Yammie is -10db. Didn't think of that...

Can't it be set to use -10db? I guess the MSR-16 is -10db, right?

[The Ghost of FM]

Your Yamaha 1604 is a Public Address mixer and not really suited for recording applications as it lacks adequate sub-mixing routing for over-dubbing and general tracking. It's also a noisy board compared to many TASCAM boards designed more for the dual application of recording and PA work.

It might be best to go with the MSR16 and find a nice TASCAM mixer to go with it and leave that very nice ATR60-16 for me!

The MSR16 is only a -10db unbalanced recorder with RCA pin jack connections and the ATR60-16 is only a balanced +4db deck, switchable to +8 db for driving extra long cable lengths, IE more then 200 feet.

I don't know what the outs on your Yamaha are? Check the manual, if you have it for that answer.

Cheers!

[reel buzzer]

The 1 inch machine sounds supicious.
The 1/2 inch 16 track is not good to me because the recording gaps are to narrow for superior sound.
You might want to look for a 1/2 inch 8 track machine.
1/2 inch tapes are less expensive and really that is all the tracks you will ever need.

The Who's "Tommy" was recorded on an 8 track machine in 1968, although it was on 1 inch tape, 8 tracks was all that was needed.

I'm sure you will agree that this was a successful album.

Most 1/2 inch 8 track machines have -10 line levels so that will work with your current mixer, but your current mixer will give you a headache when overdubbing because you need better routing capabilities for that. You should plan to upgrade to another mixer. Then you might want to look for a machine that has switchable line levels.

For your cable planning be aware that those machines with +4 line level switchable XLR jacks made before 1993 are usually pin 3 hot so you will need to rewire your cables if you by new ones. Today's equipment with +4 jacks and today's cables are pin 2 hot.

[gilwe]

Thanks,

the idea is to get a 16 track machine. I currently use a 8 track Fostex which is great sounding.

I understand that I'll need a much expensive mixer for the ATR60
(and much more space of course....)

[regebro]

Originally posted by reel buzzer
The 1/2 inch 16 track is not good to me because the recording gaps are to narrow for superior sound. [/B]

1/32" track which sounds great. Sure a 1/16" track will sound better and a 1/4-track will sound even better, so if you are anal about analog, only the "ultimate analog" 2" 8-track will do.

But the differences are really not THAT huge, and the day that you think that they are, you can upgrade again. There is no point in getting the best of the best from the start. Then you'll never get anything actually done. You'll just spend all your time working to save up money to buy that Neve desk for $350.000.


My upgrading recommendations is:

Whenever you find a limitation in your recording equipment, you need to fix that limitation by upgrading that piece of equpment. When you do, then replacement should be so good that you expect to need to upgrade it last in the recording chain, *but not better*.

Let's take a hypotetical example: Donald has a 4-track. His main problam is that the preamps in the 4-track sound like shit, primarily they are really noisy. What should he do? Well, 1. He should NOT buy new reverb. This seems obvious, but in fact there are many persons who here ask "what should I buy to get better sound" without pointing out what they thing their problem is.
OK, so what preamp should Donald buy? If he buys a pro preamp to use with his 4-track porta, he has wasted money and quality, because he can't use the full potential of the newly acquired equipment, and in fact, even an upgrade to a 8-track r2r and a nice Tascam M-216 doesn't enable him to use the full potential of that preamp. Even a RNP is overkill in this case. He can get a preamp for under $100 and that will get him over that hump, so he can start recording again. Then he can save the other $300 he has left from not buying an RNP on buying a reverb and a compressor. MUCH better.

So, in this case the tape recorder you get should be better quality than most of the other stuff you have. A 1/2" 16-track will see you well through an upgrade to a nice expensive 24ch mixer. You'll also get more preamps, mics and tons of outboards before you are gonna see that 1/2" as a limitation in sound. And in fact, you may even found that nice 24ch Tascam board is the limit well before the 16-track, you never know...

(Now of course, if you for some reason can get a much better thing than necessary, but for the same amount of money, that's not wasting. )

[reel buzzer]

regebro wrote: "1/32" track which sounds great. Sure a 1/16" track will sound better and a 1/4-track will sound even better, so if you are anal about analog, only the "ultimate analog" 2" 8-track will do.

But the differences are really not THAT huge, and the day that you think that they are, you can upgrade again. There is no point in getting the best of the best from the start. Then you'll never get anything actually done."




Excellent! I couldn't have said it better. Thanks regebro.

[gilwe]

I'm starting to think in the direction of the MSR-16,
as I'll probably WILL need a new mixer for the ATR which I currently have no intention to replace. I actually love the sound of that Yamaha. Also the MSR is not as big as the ATR and it comes with a bunch of (used) 1/2" reels and a Midiizer, patchbay and cables.

What is the starting price for that 16 - 24 track studio mixers which are made for +4d machines ?...

I guess the 1/2" sounds very nice indeed, but why not going for the more pro option when you can ?...

Hard decision.

[regebro]

I don't really know anything about that market segment, but here is the little I do know:

Mackie 8-bus can be switched to +4dBu. They seem to go for anything between $800 and $1500.

Maybe somebody knows of something with better price/performance ratio that can take +4db.

[gilwe]

... The MS-16 is a 1" machine which can take both -10 and +4

[Beck]

The Tascam MSR-16 is a fantastic machine, even with the narrower track width. It has the same track width as the Tascam 388 and Fostex R8. It runs at 15 ips with dbx type I.

Advantages are:

- Phase-Locked-Loop servo
- Computer controlled transport, which constantly monitors and adjusts tape tension and speed.
- Gapless punch-in and punch-out
- Spot erase
- Less expensive tape
- Lots of headroom, 28 db

Specs are great:
- 40Hz - 20kHz @ 15 ips
- Signal to Noise 108 dB w/dbx
- Wow & flutter 0.06% @ 15 ips.

Subjectively speaking, the machine sounds great. It's found its way into many pro studios over the years. Its a modern machine with features and technology that made 16 on 1/2" sound as good or better than a lot of older 8 on 1/2" rigs. It was made from 1989 through at least 1996. Original list price $7499.00.

If the one you're looking at is "well used" though be careful. You probably don't want a project on your hands. A lot of parts are still available from Tascam, but it will cost you. If it was well taken care of and the heads are good all you'll need is a new belt, pinch-roller, and maybe reel clampers...hopefully.

By the way $400.00 is a steal for all your getting. I've never seen that good a deal anywhere for one of these and all those extras.

[Han]

I bought a new MSR24S (Dolby S) in 1992 and worked almost every day with it until I bought a two inch machine in 1998.

The MSR24 is the same kind of machine as the MSR16.

I still use the machine synced to the 2" every now and then.

It has never let me down, not for a second. It only needed a new head once, which has cost me some $3000.-

The problem with analog machines is that analog is the most expensive way of recording music these days.

For the price of a new 2" head, you can buy a full blown system with Cubase SX or Nuendo.

BTW, my MSR was updated to +4

[reel buzzer]

The Mackie 2408 will provide you with the right line levels and routing. Plus the L/R main outs of the board are a hot 28 db which will be good for your mixes.

[gilwe]

The ATR may not be avaliable.... The guy said someone has gave him some of the money to reserve it.

I think the MSR-16 will be OK, considering it's phisical size (much smaller than the ATR) and all the additional accessories included with it, and it's compatibility with the Yamaha mixer...

[gilwe]

I still use the machine synced to the 2" every now and then.

Han, you can tell anything about it sync capabilities ? I can get a tascam dedicated syncronizer with it. not sure which model though...

It's found its way into many pro studios over the years. Its a modern machine with features and technology that made 16 on 1/2" sound as good or better than a lot of older 8 on 1/2" rigs

Beck, do you think it really sounds as good or better than older 8 track 1/2" machines ?? Is it in the newer technology and electronics ?

Say such a machine is used on everyday basis a few hours a day in a pro studio, how many years can the head take ?

Thanks

[gilwe]

Well, had a talk with the MSR guy, there are 25 reels I can have plus a few syncronizer he has, TWO of them is a Tascam ES50 (SMPTE??) and Tascam MTS30 Midi-to-tape sync (which doesn't worth much, hate midi clock syncronizers, need SMPTE)

He bought it second hand from a guy of whom it was the second machine he owned (this is where all 25 reels from)

I guess it is well used, but will be able to have it for a few days to test it before I buy.

I also found that the Tascam is probably a 85-16B and not an ATR ... does that makes a different story ?...

[The Ghost of FM]

Originally posted by gilwe
I also found that the Tascam is probably a 85-16B and not an ATR ... does that makes a different story ?...

That model is a much older one from the late 70's and based on a one inch tape format.

It would offer -10db unbalanced, RCA pin jack connections and had dbx and remote auto-locators as an optional features which are very handy to have so be sure it comes with them as they are next to impossible to find alone these days for sale.

Issues of wear and tear on the heads and all the other parts would be more of a concern.

I own and use a MS16 which is also a one inch machine and offers both unbalanced and balanced connections and came with all the optional accessories mentioned above. At this point mine is 17 years old and works and sounds wonderful but it has required service over the years and I budgeted for that when I bought mine back in the mid 90's and paid $3500.00 Canadian for it. It's original retail was 20g's with all the accessories here in Toronto so, to me, it seemed like a great deal at the time of purchase.

Cheers!

[Beck]

Originally posted by gilwe
Beck, do you think it really sounds as good or better than older 8 track 1/2" machines ?? Is it in the newer technology and electronics ?

Say such a machine is used on everyday basis a few hours a day in a pro studio, how many years can the head take ?

Thanks

For comparison I can say the MSR-16 beats the Tascam 38 and 80-8, Fostex R8 and B/E/G-16. Its due in part to head design, electronics, and a micro controlled transport. The on-board dbx is also very well integrated with the system. Both the MSR-16 and TSR-8 got rave reviews for their tight dbx systems that left the sound virtually unaffected by the usual pumping and breathing associated with dbx.

That being said, I like the Fostex E-16 with its Dolby C nearly as well.

Granted, 16 tracks on 1/2" tape is really squeezing things together compared to the way things were done before. But many years of R&D on Tascam's part made it work. If you remember the Tascam 388, it sounded incredible at half the speed of the MSR-16 with same track width.

Estimating head life by hours of use is not really an exact science. One clue to look for is the type of tape used. Head wear occurs because tape is abrasive, with Ampex 406 being less abrasive than 456, and 456 being less abrasive than 499 or GP9. What type are the 25 tapes that come with the machine? If someone used 499 for the life of the machine I would probably pass on buying it.

Before you try to predict how long the heads will last you should know how they are doing now. If you can, put a tape on the machine and record some material on each of the 16 tracks at 0 vu. You want to see the playback level on the meters at approximately the same level as what you recorded. A 1kHz test tone would be ideal. Uneven levels on some tracks can indicate uneven headwear.

Here are a couple good links (with pictures) that explain better than I can what to look for when examining tape heads.

http://www.jrfmagnetics.com/headtrip.html

http://www.jrfmagnetics.com/tapeheadintro.html

I should add that I have a general rule to steer clear of production machines from pro studios because they are probably well worn. I keep my eye open for gear bought by rich kids that never really used it much back in the day. There are still quite a few barely used TSR-8s and MSR-16s out there.

My second-hand TSR-8 was used by a band that never really figured it out. It sat in storage for years and the heads looked new. All it needed was new rubber (belt and pinch roller), which can actually deteriorate more from lack of use.

Best of luck

[Han]

Originally posted by gilwe
Han, you can tell anything about it sync capabilities ? I can get a tascam dedicated syncronizer with it. not sure which model though...

I have an ES50/51 sync box that works with SMPTE. The MSR is master and the (slave) 2" Otari machine runs like a charm.

You can also use the ES as a remote for the slave machine.

[gilwe]

I inspected the MSR-16 today.

It had a few problems -

1. The first (and the worst) problem is hat the guy who bought it (second hand from a pro studio) has probably tried to clean the counter roller (the one on the right side of the machine, with the slotted rubber) using some dissolving material, which totally dissolved the rubber. As I squeezed the rubber surface, it all melted !!! can't see how the guy was using the machine for so long this way ......

2. It was all dirted as the studio is placed at a very dusted area.

3. Head looked quite OK. Following the instructions Beck has linked, I found the the head was OK, had a even pattern over it.

4. It looks like he has never cleaned and of the heads or rollers.... some black material was left here and there. Cleaned that with alchohol.


I didn't check it further as it didn't look good to me anyway.