Acoustic buying advice needed

[foo]

Uh-oh!

Did anyone else notice the quote:

"I can see that one guitar is not going to be enough."

It's the same old story - once they start experimenting with this stuff, before you know it they're hooked on the hard stuff. All these youngsters don't know how addictive it is - give them all a cold shower, I say.
Next thing you know, he'll be making the choice between new strings and food - and he'll be buying the new strings.


Ain't life great?

(c:]

foo

[Treeline]

I warned him (April 3 post) but he had to go and try them out anyway. Now lookee what happened. He's one of us! God help him

[WATYF]

You're in luck my friend... I have just gone through the living hell that is finding a nice new guitar, getting the best sound, for the best value, and all that crap that you're dealing with right now... and guess what I came out with... A Taylor 414CE (cutaway, w/fishman pickup)
Now, you were saying that you saw a 410 for about $1149... well I hope that was with a pick-up, maybe a cutaway too, and that the price included the case... otherwise you weren't getting a very good deal... I got the 414CE with the deluxe Taylor hardshell case for $1199... it was a pretty good deal... I might have been able to run around a little more to see if that was the best I could do... but I really just wanted the guitar RIGHT THEN )

Anyway, I also started out by looking at the 410...(the CE model, because I wanted the cutaway and the pick-up) I bought one because it had a nice, full sound... I liked the look... and I liked the African wood that they use on the body (ovangkol, or some name like that) ) and heck, it was a Taylor... (I thouroughly concur with the previous praise given this brand) It had the best sound for the money of all the guitars I had played... and trust me, I went around playin' more guitars than you can imagine for months...
But like these guys have already told you, you need to have it set up after you buy it,.. unfortunately, being the impatient person that I am, I just let the store I bought it from, Guitar Center, send it out to get set-up... I thought it would be quicker... bad move... I didn't see it for 3 and a half weeks... so I went back in and griped about how this was much too long so they sent me up to their sister store in the St. Louis area to get a replacement, and I was just gonna get another 410.. BUT it ends up that they had a 414CE that had just come in... still yet untouched by any of those psychos who go into the high-end acoustic room and pound around like madmen on guitars that cost more than the cars they drive..
Anyway,..I tried it... and it was beautiful... not only did it sound better than the 410, but I tried it through the acoustic amp they had set up there, and I could swear that the pick-up sound quality was better than the 410...even though it's the same pick-up, but whatever..it might have just been my imagination... and I also think that the grand auditorium body style just plain looks better than the dreadnaught style of the 410... then they told me that it was the SAME PRICE... so I was out of there before they could change their minds... trust me... if you're thinking of going with the 410... go for the 414.. and since you've already mentioned that you have a guitar center near you... go in and ask for a 414CE with the case for $1199 and they should do it... now since you've said you don't really need a acoustic/elec. you can get it without the pick-up and that'll shave a couple hundred off the price..

I know when this post started, you were going for a $500-$1000 range entry level.. but doesn't suck that once you've played something like a Taylor, you can't imagine going to some $500 Takamine... This wasn't even my first guitar... this was my "step up",.. so I guarantee, this would be a great first guitar for anyone...

Just to parrot some previous advice... don't skimp on the strings... The Elixirs that Taylor puts on their guitars and recommends for them, are good strings... (just a little pricey) I put a mediocre pair of strings on the same guitar and couldn't believe how much sound quality I lost... and definitely get it set up... that'll be another $70-$90 but it's worth it... they'll custom set the action, oil it all up, mill the frets if needed, make sure the tonation is just right... and remember... DON'T LET GUITAR CENTER DO IT FOR YOU....


WATYF

P.S. I also looked at Larrivee's and I agree with those who said they're a great buy for the money... those D0-2's are pretty good little guitars for the price.. (570 bucks for an acous/elec) much better than the entry level Martin "DXM" for about the same price...

[hongteck]

I tried the Simon & Patrick guitars over the weekend. It has fine craftmanship and plays beautifully. Compared to a Taylor, I prefered the Simon & Patrick because it's warmer and more 'woody' (if there's such a word) and that works for me. Now its just to get the money to buy one ! :-)

[hockey punk]

Personal preferences after many years , Mahogany and Maple make wonderful necks , but for bodies stick to Rosewood . Rosewood gives you more even volumes from lows to highs . Mahogany bodies in particular have boomieness at certain frequencies and with certain strings (usually old ones ) that will require corrective EQing to record properly . Also strings make a world of difference , try everything and trust your ears . I agree with some of the other posts about Alvarez guitars , cheaper and as good as some of the Big Boys.They also have some Rosewood bodies and Jacaranda which is a member of the rosewood family .

[JimH]

Ok guys, I've decided. I've just ordered a Taylor 410. Tom, I took your suggestion and I called up Buffalo Bros. And guess what? The price was not $895, it was lower! So I took it. (But I DO have to pay tax since I'm in CA) Thanks. You saved me some bucks. The only thing I worry about is that I don't get to try the exact guitar I'm buying. But Taylor is supposed to be pretty consistent.

Why the Taylor? Well first I have to say I didn't go around for weeks trying every guitar on Earth. But of those I did try, the 410 grabbed me the most. I couldn't resist the great sustain and the clarity. When I strum a chord, all the strings seem to blend together so nicely. And the intonation stays excellent all the way up the neck. My only criticism of the 410 is that the bottom end is thin. The lower strings don't have the warmth of some other guitars. But nevertheless, I couldn't resist the sparkle. WATYF, yes, the 414 sounded just as nice to me, but I'm not crazy about the body shape. I also compared the 410 to a 510, but the 410 was better. But again, I think it was probably because the 510 had older strings. Only one store carried Larivee, and for some reason they had none between the prices of $549 and about $2000, so I didn't get to try any of those in the price range I would have liked.

So now, should I think about getting it set up? Why would I want to do that? I mean, what if I have no complaints about the action? Then what would be the value in getting it set up? What all is included in the process? And, why doesn't a new guitar already come in its best condition? Why does it need more work?

Oh yeah, and thanks for all the help. This thread is a wealth of information and probably should get archived somewhere.

Jim


[This message has been edited by JimH (edited 04-19-2000).]

[Treeline]

Good work! Even if you did get a Taylor . You will not regret it. As to setups, let this one have a little time. They are generally shipped set up; your dealer may be doing its own thing. Particularly if you are getting back your chops, don't do anything drastic until you have a real sense of what you want. That process will probably involve you getting familiar with the instrument, whereupon you won't WANT it any different. The setup and feel becomes personal to you. Let it happen.

Can a pro shop improve a setup? Generally, yes. Should you do it? Well, why?

Keep a humidifier of some kind in the case and never let the instrument get too dry. Don't let it freeze.

NEVER LEAVE IT IN A HOT CAR!!! That can absolutely ruin the instrument beyond repair in two hours. Period.

Change strings more often than you need, and enjoy this beautiful thing!

[WATYF]

Hey man,.. to each his own... I'm sure you'll love it... but don't get it set up right away... A guitar needs to acclamate to it's environment before you go getting it set-up... so just break it in for at least 2 weeks to a month... and then it will have adjusted to your climate (temp, humidity) and then you can get it set up... If you don't think it's a huge deal to you,.. then you don't have to,.. I haven't done mine yet, but I will... but just so you know.. the set-up out of the factory is NOT the best set-up that a guitar can get... but it's not a "bad" set-up either (except for some occasions) so it's just something to consider... But definitely get the humidifier... even if it's just one of the "damp-it's" that you put in the guitar.. (p.s. They say to use that plastic sound hole cover, but don't use that. That way it humidifies the whole guitar.) It just takes a little more attention to take care of a guitar like that, but you definitely get your money's worth out of it.

WATYF

[aeymate]

between $500-1000, i'd stay with guild. martins are good acoustics also, but i think that guild takes the cake. i'd take my dce1 over any larivee anyday. the playability is great for the beginning guitarist as well as a veteran. but the sound is phenominal.

[jdavis]

Hey,
Takamine guitars rule. 'Nuff said there. I've got one and wouldn't trade it for any other kind. They've got the most amazing tone. Can't go wrong with 'em...good luck...

***Justin***

[tdukex]

Jim, I'm glad you got your guitar. You will not be sorry you bought a Taylor, and you will be glad you bought it from Buffalo Bros if you ever decide to trade up. I put my reputation on the line recommending Buffalo Bros. If you are not 100% satisfied with your purchase, let me know.

[JimH]

Heh heh, Tom, don't worry. I won't hold you responsible for Buff Bros. My choice.

But I do have a possible problem. I received the guitar a couple of days ago. The action is kind of high, making it hard to play further up the neck. I don't have any good measuring tool, but I discovered that I can *just* fit a 3-1/2 inch floppy disk between the 12th fret and the string. I don't know how thick a floppy is, but that's how high the action is.

It seemed to me that the 410 I played in my local store didn't have such high action. So today I went back to the store to check it out and sure enough it was significantly better. So I wonder if I can get mine adjusted to be better. I don't know that I can complain to Buff Bros. or Taylor about it because the guitar really isn't defective. It just isn't as good as another 410. Other than the high action, it's fine. (I also want to say it's a tad tougher to play, but right now I'm going through that awful period of toughening up my fingertips. So that's probably it.)

Should I try to adjust it myself? It came with a wrench and a page of directions on how to adjust it. Or is it worth having a technician do it?

Oh yeah, one more thing. The serial number of my guitar suggests that it was made in January of 1999. Quite a while ago. The serial number of the one in the store with the good action looked to be from November of 1999. I don't know if that means anything.

Jim

[Treeline]

If the action is distractingly high, there are a number of things that can be done. The first thing is to call the retailer and talk with somebody there. You may be within a small time limited window - "100 % satisfaction" that operates independently of a warranty claim. Make the call and make notes of the conversation, when you called, who you spoke with, etc.

You may find that the simplest thing for everyone is for the retailer to refer you to a Taylor approved technician, and that they will pay for the work (or pass it through to Taylor). I wouldn't be timid here, nor would I mess with it myself if I had made the purchase. That's why you bought it new. So use your UCC warranty leverage to get somebody's attention. You can be firm and reasonable at the same time, and the solution can't be rocket science.

[tdukex]

That is good advice from Treeline. I was going to tell you before you bought it to instruct Buffalo Bros to setup the guitar for you before it shipped. Whatever you do, do not attempt to adjust the neck yourself. The action can be lowered by sanding down the saddle, but I'd take Treeline's advice. Call Buffalo Bros and have a local authorized Taylor shop bill them for the cost of a setup.

[JimH]

Thank again, guys. After talking to Buffalo Bros. I realized that it's not a big deal. I can do it myself. But perhaps I'll take it somewhere to have it done anyway. It shouldn't cost more than $10 or so. Gary says they check the action before they send guitars out, and they set it to about medium-low. Though it's a bit too high for my preference. I'm not sure what you mean about sanding the saddle. It should just be a truss rod adjustment.

[tdukex]

The saddle is the thin strip of plastic in the bridge that the strings ride on. The first thing that Bill Meyer at Buffalo Bros will look to do when lowering a guitar's action is to reduce the height of the saddle. He measures the string action at the twelfth fret to see how much lower the string can go before buzzing. He told me the standard minimum millimeter height once but I forgot.

I used to buy several saddles at once to adjust my own string action. I would keep sanding a saddle down a little at a time until the strings started to buzz. Then I would use that saddle as a template for the next one, which I would sand down almost but not as far as the template. It was tedious work, but I was able to adjust my action considerably. If you sand too far, start again with a new saddle. Do not try to fix it by shimming up the saddle with a thin strip of paper or plastic. Doing this will rob tone, volume, and sustain from your guitar.

Again, I suggest you do not adjust you truss rod yourself. Have a pro repair person do it and only if it's absolutely necessary.

[Treeline]

I agree. A truss rod adjustment will affect the string height, but for reasons that may not be to your advantage. It should not be used to set action, unless its done in conjunction with a few other things that a good tech will scope out. Part of the problem with fooling with the truss rod is that there are no fine adjustments. A little change here means a big change there. The other thing is that an adjustment of the rod messes with the whole neck geometry, and you seem to have a simpler task at hand.

A tech can look at the neck, determine how the frets were honed in the first place, (so anything he does will use that work as a reference) calculate whether (and how much) to lower the saddle, watch the nut height so he doesn't inadvertantly create buzzing, and THEN adjust the truss rod if needed. All in about twenty minutes. And he (or she) may do it in the reverse order. My point is that he will look at a number of things at once, each of which will interact.

Don't try this at home! (Well, at leasat until you've spent some time with guitars and begin to understand the physics of them. Trust me, it happens by osmosis...)

[schmee]

Buy what sounds good and feels good to play. Pay attention to what sound suits the type of music you play, and what sounds good in the mix of those instruments you play with? Also of course is the money thing can be an issue.

I am a firm believer in the gradual upgrade thing. I just upgraded from my 1st guitar (Johnson - a whopping $99 bucks to start learning, I'm actually a bass player) to a new Seagull mahogany/cedar with LR Baggs micro EQ & case for $540. I really love it, and it suits my talent at this point. Eventually, I will by a Martin, and perhaps that will be it.

[Treeline]

No, Schmee, that won't be the end of it. There will just be more of it. There will never be an end to it! Just don't tell her...

[Salabim]

if you can get your hands on one...
GET A MATON!!!! all the way!!!!

[Treeline]

YO, JIM!!

Tell us how things are working out!

[JimH]

Okey, dokey. Well, I've been very happy with the 410. I think it's a great deal if you can get a good price on it...and you can at Buff Bros.

Regarding the action, I did some reading and question-asking on the Internet and learned more. Then I adjusted the truss rod just a bit until the action was OK. At this point, the neck is perfectly straight, there are no buzzes, and I like it. I believe there's nothing wrong with having a straight neck as long as you get no buzzes with your playing style. According to a luthier, neck relief is a necessary evil and the less of it you need, the better off you'll be. Of course, the truss rod is not the way to adjust action. But in my case, it worked out well enough so that I could avoid having to take it to the shop.

At some point, though, I think I might want to improve the action more. It's not bad now, but it would be nice to have it better. When that day comes, I'll have it setup by a pro.

I also got the Taylor video tape that describes their straight neck design. By "straight neck" they're referring to the point where the neck meets the body, where many guitars have a hump. It seems like a pretty good design. They demonstrate how the neck angle can be re-set in as little as 5 minutes. And this re-setting still leaves the neck straight past the 14th fret. The straight neck design doesn't imply that you don't need any neck relief, you generally do. But I thought it was interesting to note that the guitar in the video did in fact seem to have a perfectly straight neck. (You know all this, Treeline, since you have an 815 )

Anyway, not much else to say about it. Everything's fine.

[Treeline]

Ah, but it's an 815 using the old neck / body joint. Yours has an advantage in that the stresses on the fingerboard are all supported by the neck and the neck extension - hidden from view by the fingerboard extension. No more 14th fret hump - ever.

I still like my 815, though! And if I want a little more caffeine in my coffee, I just put on a new set of strings. Amazing trick!

[PILSMAN]

I just bought a DEAN Exotica acoustic/elec. It was under $500, and sounded as good and played better than the Takamine. Seagul are also excellent.

You need to play different woods, each has a different tone and volume. Competition is high in this market, so don't worry. You'll
be able to buy a fine instrument for less than a grand.

[zer0sig]

there's a bulletin board on questions just like this that you must all check out. it's called the 13th fret, and is full of guys who are fanatics of world-class guitars. if interested in anything less than a solid-wood, you may not want to go there, but i've learned more by lurking there than from years of playing/listening to/reading about acoustic guitars. here's the URL: http://www.13thfret.com
(i elected to give the site instead of the board url, because it's quicker to type