Room in a room

[Warren Goold]

Hi all

I was using John's site still waiting, anyway
I need help with a design Idea since I was able to acquire
more space, my old design became obsolete. I have a three car garage 31' x 21' with 8'2" ceiling it has rollup doors one 8' and 0ne 16' which will be sealed off this will be the outer walls
the inner room with (Live room,CR,Vox booth and etc) must be no larger than 27'x 17'x 8' at its walls outer most measurements
also since it will be a room in a room do I need the inner room to be staggered walls? I am in a quite mountian town ie. lo noise area.

Any insight would help, building very soon
Thanks
Warren

[John Sayers]

No Warren - you don't need to stagger the walls. You only do that when both sides of a wall has drywall.

Peter has established that the fault is the phone line so we now wait for Telstra to fix the line. Should be back next week sometime I assume.

cheers
john

[Warren Goold]

Great news John.
I must say I was a bit concerned
Any design Ideas?
and should this post remain here or on you're site?
Thanks
Warren

[Warren Goold]

Lots of lookers yet still no suggestions!

Kind of concerning for a Studio Building forum

realy any insight would help I already have the materials to build
one 2/3s the size and contractors lined up, but since I got more space what can I say but,
Help!

WG

[Michael Jones]

Well, the only question you asked was answered.
Maybe if you posted a drawing of what you'd like to do, we could critique it and give you some pointers in that regard, but nobody is going to draw a plan up for you and tell you "Do it like this".

Design ideas.
Sure.
Avoid parallel walls. Provide for broadband absorbtion and diffusion.

[Warren Goold]

As per your request!

The attached file was the old design that John came up with
now the full space of the garage is avail so I need to
readjust to accomidate the extra space but was concerned about
room size ratios, wall angles etc after room size increase.

also If my last post pissed anyone off it surely
was not intended
I'm just freaken out or maybe over medicated
anyway

Thanks
Warren

[Warren Goold]

I did some change as you will see on the attachment
but am unsure of there reactions in the room
would hate to spent this kid of time and money
without being sure.
ANY sugguestions?
Warren

[knightfly]

So, basically you just have more length to work with?

You mentioned a quiet town, but didn't say whether you were concerned with sound getting OUT to disturb any neighbors -

Your re-do has some detail lacking - are those windows between CR and vox booth, or doors? John's original is much clearer as to intent there - also, what's that hodge-podge at the corner near the door, between vox booth and front of the CR? seems like over-complication -

You probably would be better off just stretching John's design and making your tracking room larger (CR too, for that matter) - I'm not sure what you intend to do in the CR, whether it's going to be more of a personal space with keyboards, etc, or JUST a CR - that can be an important point, you need to envision just how many people/things will be in the CR so you don't under-size it.

If you still need some isolation from neighbors instead of explaining to the local cops why you're a naughty boy, there are specific ways of getting max isolation for minimum materials - that's an important decision that can NOT be made AFTER you build... Steve

[Warren Goold]

Yes it is a quiet town and I am concerned about sound outside, but after a few posts with John,and
further study I felt that regarding the fact that the outer room (garage)
is stucco>insulation bairrer>stud frame>drywall 5/8" two feet air space before inner room 1/2" drywall>5/8"
drywall>Resilient Channel>R19 insulation>2"x4" steel stud frame>5/8" drywall>1/2" drywall
That I would be left with a low enough sound leakage. Please correct me if I am mistaken on these points.

Yes I had intended to place dual pane slideing glass doors once again open to corrections

My hodge-podge is a pile of egg crates as suggested in one of your earlier posts
No I was just concerned about such sharpe angles no real reason

yes two and up to four people need to be able to be in CR at rare times
I will see about how the stretch looks and feels
Thanks guy

Warren

[knightfly]

There are a couple of problems going the way you plan, as far as best isolation for dollar spent. One - the best use of materials is to have two, and only two, leaves of mass between the two areas to be isolated (in one case, that's between you and the world - in the other case, it's between CR and tracking room or iso room. This is true of ceilings also, and floors if you want to get technical.

Your plan on interior walls having identical leaves on both sides will be a mistake as well - even if this construction didn't equal a "4-leaf wall", (your outer double leaf wall and your inner, double leaf wall) you STILL don't want both leaves of any wall to be identical to each other. Doing that means that whatever frequencies get through one side will also get through the other side. This is why you need to change one leaf by either adding an extra layer, preferably different thickness, or by using two 5/8 on one side and one each of 5/8 and 1/2 on the other.

I just ran some calculations on a wall with one 1/2" sheetrock on the outside (my freebie calc only does sheet rock) and two 5/8" layers on the inside, on separate frames, with a 36" air gap (like your hallway down the one side) and it comes up with STC 59, with its mass-air-mass resonance clear down to 26 hZ - this would be a very good wall - its Transmission loss clear down to 50 hZ is still 32 dB, which equates to probably 70 dB when you figure in the Fletcher-Munson curve of human hearing response -

If I were you, I'd consider doing some of John's "inside out" walls for at least that side of the enclosure - you'll get extra absorption, almost zero loss of air space (percentage-wise) . Since your outside frame already has wallboard on the inner side, I would temporarily leave it (at least on the side where you can get at it after the room is constructed) - then, I would build your inner walls with wallboard only on the outside of the frame, and run some leakage tests (a live drummer helps for this, as will a sound level meter - the Radio shack analog one is fine for this as well as a good tool just to have around ) - then, if you're not happy with the isolation you can remove the wallboard from your outer frame and replace it with pegboard (to protect the insulation, and to eliminate that "leaf" acoustically) and add 1 or 2 more layers on the studio wall (but only on the one side of the frame, not both)

For the walls that do NOT have room to work, you'll want to get rid of the inner wallboard (it can be replaced with pegboard if need be, to protect insulation without becoming another "leaf") before putting up your new frames, then put wallboard ONLY on one side of the new frame. When drawing this, keep the construction so that sound always has to travel through two separate mass centers to get through, no matter where it goes.

This can be a real bitch to get right, but the end result has been lab-tested, and the exact same amount of materials can yield up to 23 dB more (or less) sound isolation just by where they are placed, in the exact same framing. It's worth getting it right the first time. If you have more questions on this, I'll be around... Steve

[Warren Goold]

Now thats the kind of insight I was hoping for
Thank you so much, sounds as though I can
same a lot of money and time too
although one would think that more wall would reduce
more sound, thats what tests are for. As for RC resilient channel
if at all would you put it on the inside walls of the studio and CR

I have not seen John design on "inside out" walls but when his site up I wil have a look

Thanks again, your Da superfly

Thanks
Warren

[knightfly]

If you'll be using separate frames for your inner and outer leaves (and you should, with the extra air space between you'll get noticeably better isolation) then you don't need Resilient channel for the walls - you may still want to consider some kind of resilient ceiling setup though - we've not covered that yet. Remember that in sound proofing, the weakest link is the best you get.

Maybe you could 'splain (EXACTLY) what is already there when you look up, as well as whether your existing roof is vented through soffits, whether there are any vents in your stucco walls, how you plan to tackle the garage door problem, what you can/will do for HVAC, etc.

Oh, the inside out walls - for your inner walls, you would just put all the wallboard on the outside of the frame instead of inside - then, you would insulate using either rigid fiberglas (better) or standard spun fiberglas batts, but with about half the batts installed with the paper in, the other half out, then cover the frame with cloth - this gives a lot of acoustic treatment without taking up extra floor space... Steve

[Warren Goold]

The garage roof to ceiling is a standard comp roof >
Truss > approx 7' air space > Approx 8" blown in insulation
> 2"x6" timber stud > 1/2" drywall. The roofs airspace vents to finished eves outside. No vents on garage walls to outside.

The garage doors are metal rollup type with styrofoam panels
My intention is to lock the doors down, take off the tracks
above the door that attach to the ceiling, take off the spring assy,
Take off the door opener, seal door with silocone, and cover the entire door with a 2"x6" steel stud frame box with rigid fiberglass and 5/8" drywall then again seal that cover with silicone.

As far as HVAC. The area in which I live the Tehachapi mountians, is very cool even during summer months, but after construction is done if there is still an issue. I had thought about using two of the smaller window units setup outside the garage in an enclosure with intake and outlet ducts from each unit going in through the eves and over and into the live room and also CR, and control there funtion from CR. I am aware that this may seem a bit cheesey but I cant afford $10K for HVAC.

Any inexpencive ideas would be of a great help.

Thanks Steve for all your help on this it sure has cleared up a lot for me.

I know I have seen you moderate Johns site if I am not mistaken
I was wondering is this sort of thing (acoustic eng and studio design) is just a hobbie or a living. Seems as though ya got it down

Thanks

Warren

[knightfly]

"I was wondering is this sort of thing (acoustic eng and studio design) is just a hobbie or a living. Seems as though ya got it down " -

I guess it's sort of a hobby on its way to becoming a job :=) - I built a room into my barn a little over 20 years ago, and was really bummed out when my wife could tell from inside the house almost 100 feet away, exactly what I was playing on an acoustic piano - been studying and experimenting with stuff ever since, and will hopefully be in a position in a couple more years to build a complete stand-alone facility - now that I know almost enough to be dangerous, hopefully I'll only make half the mistakes I would have :=)

There are a few drawings I can point you to at John's once the site is back online (crappy Aussie Tel co, apparently) - that should help explain things even more.

So, you're saying you have a truss roof, and that the horizontal chords are 2x6? Are these trusses on 24" centers, 16" centers, or what?

Since your roof is vented (and needs to be) you'll need one more leaf of mass than the one presently fastened to your truss bottoms - it's usually all but impossible to put the second leaf on top of the horizontal truss chords, since it would entail cutting and fitting around each diagonal chord for at least two layers, tightly enough to accomplish an airtight seal. I'll have to get into that part later, we're in an ice storm that keeps trying to break everything I own... Steve

[Warren Goold]

Trusses are on a 16" center

I had concidered just suspending 5/8" & 1/2" drywall on RC that was attached to the 16"on center steel studs of the ceiling of the room in a room I am building inbetween the garage ceiling an roof of studio would be rigid fiberglass insulation

Hope you don't have to resort to used car tires to hold everything down out there, kinda looks tackie but works oddly enough

Warren

[knightfly]

"I had concidered just suspending 5/8" & 1/2" drywall on RC that was attached to the 16"on center steel studs of the ceiling of the room in a room I am building inbetween the garage ceiling an roof of studio would be rigid fiberglass insulation" -

I need you to run that one by me a little slower, with punctuation where it needs to be, and step by step like you were telling a carpenter how you want it built - I'm not sure you aren't headed for another "acoustic no-no", til I fully understand what you're going to put where, and how many...

Thanks for the concern, but there's been almost no wind (which is really wierd) just freezing rain over about 6" (originally) of powder snow - I think it's finally warming up enough to start melting stuff now; Man, is ice ever heavy when it's on an awning you don't want broken - here's a shot of my wife's car about an hour ago...

[Son of Mixerman]

Where on the west coast do you live Knightfly? Im just outside of Seattle and I had 8 inches of snow yesterday, my car was candy coated this morning too. I saw alot of transformers blowing on my way to work. Lots of busted trees covered in ice.

SoMm

[knightfly]

I live about 35 miles southeast of Salem, Oregon - we have just under 10 acres on a hill, it's either trying to wash us off the hill or blow us off the hill, now it's trying to make an ice sculpture of the whole thing :=) Not really complaining too loud, it's just that we're not used to more than maybe a couple inches of snow every other year, so it's kinda novel - Here's a shot out the back sliding glass door, our place goes to the tree line, it's kinda like a "spaghetti farm" - long and narrow... Steve

[Warren Goold]

Nice HVAC but how does it work in the studio
a detailed drawing would help, I don't think I
need one quite that elabrate

must be nice to have a roaring fire ta warm the buns and a hot cup of mud (java) while enjoying that view

how far is that from Mt Shasta I got a brother in Weed Ca

Warren

[Michael Jones]

Nice looking camper/trailer there in the photo, Steve.
But with those incredible surroundings, couldn't you just pitch a tent in the back yard!?

[knightfly]

Plenty of "VAC", notta lotta "H" - I'm about 320 miles north of Weed, been thru it quite a few times tho - Fireplace is great, it's semi-airtight, when closed down a notch above "compost mode", you can sit on it (bunwarmer mode) without leaving skin behind ( or is that, "behind skin behind"...)

Michael - "Nice looking camper/trailer there in the photo, Steve.
But with those incredible surroundings, couldn't you just pitch a tent in the back yard!?" -

The trailer is a temp, it'll move as soon as my 84-year old mom doesn't need it any more - tried tents, but on this hill plywood and 2x4's is temporary construction (had at least 80 mph winds here, some years not quite so bad) - best thing going is the view, house is marginal (gonna add on a 2-story with even better view due to higher vantage point this year, then build my "real" studio in 2-3 more, looking at 40 x 60 x 16 foot eaves with shell being 8" ICF concrete. Got a place off the bedroom end of the house where it will fit and not screw up any scenery)

Looks like the ice is pulling a "wicked witch of the west" scene, supposedly the cold snap's gone for a while (but you know how those weather people lie)

Later... steve

[knightfly]

Here's a shot off my front porch about an hour ago - guess even "naked" beauty bushes can be pretty...

[John Sayers]

Wow - beautiful view Steve

I'm sitting here with just a sarong cos it's 90 degrees The weather's weird here too mate. Inland NSW which is normally 90+ is 60 today! - severe storms just went through south of me - could be a cyclone year - we are due for one.

cheers
john

[Warren Goold]

John:

Aren't you supposed to be on a pole somewhere fixing phone lines?

I think we all can say we miss your web site

Warren

[Warren Goold]

"I need you to run that one by me a little slower, with punctuation where it needs to be, and step by step like
you were telling a carpenter how you want it built - I'm not sure you aren't headed for another "acoustic no-no", til I fully understand what you're going to put where, and how many..."

The CR, Live room and Vox booth, ceilings frame structure shall be 2"x4" 16" On Center, a steel stud construction, suspended 2" below the existing garage ceiling but not tied to it in anyway. Their will be NO drywall on top of this structure, just riged fiberglass insulation between the studs. Attached to the underneath of these studs will be resilient channels at 90 degrees to the studs. The resilent channels will be 24" On center. Attached and suppended from the channels will be 5/8" drywall which will be sealed, then over the 5/8" drywall will be 1/2" drywall which shall also be sealed. this shall be the finished
ceiling of the studio, control room and vox booth. Only awaiting acoustic treatment if nesessary.

My studio design is on johns site
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/vi...hp?p=7469#7469
awaiting a few tweaks but I am using this site for construction techniques.

Thanks Steve

Warren