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#1
12-04-2003
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Can you learn or is it a gift?
I've been a guitarist for as long as I know, and I'm pretty much at a professional level at this point.
But one thing I have never thought about or even cared about is songwriting. I don't mean just lyrics, but musically too. I'm 24, have been playing guitar for probably 15-16 years, and I have not written one single song or melody or anything that is my own. This is why I will never make money with my playing, 'cause I don't have my own material. Do you guys think that if I've been playing for so long and have not written anything that it simply isn't in me? Is it something you have to just have? I've met many musicians in my life, and even the really bad ones who have no physical skill on their instruments still had something to show that they had written, and most of the time it was impressive to a certain degree. I have been trying to come-up with catchy melodies or chord progressions and it just doesn't come out from me. Everything sounds so fake and soul-less. Anyone have an opinion on this? I'd appreciate any input, and don't hold back, let me have it, just watch the hair. 
__________________
Markku Kivinen 
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#2
12-04-2003
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Just like playing an instrument takes practice, so does writing a song. I think that the key is to do it often, and before long you'll get better at expressing yourself.
Not every song is a keeper, but after you've developed a body of work, you can sift through it and find the better ideas and develop them further. They may spark other ideas, and before you know it, you'll have written songs that you like and are proud of. I do believe that some people are better than others at songwriting, just like some people are better athletes than others. However I don't believe that anybody is incapable of writing a song. It's just a craft that you'll have to devote some time and effort to. Remember that music is art, and art is subjective. Good, bad, whatever...just do what you want to do!
__________________
________________________________________________________________ Everyone's a voyeur, they're watching me watch them watch me right now
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#3
12-04-2003
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That's right..
songwriting is a skill like any other.. some people do show a propensity, others have to work at it more... If you improvise (play solos) on your guitar, then you've already begun the process.. If you analyze your solos, you'll see that they have a dynamic sense.. Well..guess what... That's one of the most important elements of songwriting ! Be patient with yourself, and remember, like that other poster said.. It's subjective.... Just be honest..don't try to write hits...write songs...the "hits" will come.. Good Luck Bob Young
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#4
12-04-2003
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anyone can do it.
you're gonna start w/ stuff that will probably dissapiont you but it's just like learning to play guitar. you start simple beacuse that is all you can do at the time until you practice and learn. Write as many songs as you can..doesn't matter if they suck or not...you'll be surpised how many cheesy rhymes you come up with....you basically have to learn all the basic rhymes and get them out of your system before you can advance onto the actual emotion of the song. A good songwriter will know where a rhyme is going and still keep the context of the song....this only comes with practice so write all you can. Songwriting is an instrument that has to be learned and practiced. Good luck.
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#5
12-04-2003
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At first, that was me... cheesy writings. Still I think my material is chess yet, people tell me they are great or superb. I don't get it sometimes how they can say such a thing as great to my work, but whatever peanut butter their jelly is fine with me. I started off playing piano by ear and then moved to guitar. When I tried my hands at writing I could not get it do what I wanted (sound like a real song) my dad introduced me to poetry and told me if I read more poetry I found meaning self emotions expressions... after that and four years down the road I can write somewhat good.. better than what I started out writing. Now, I've been writing and playing bass for twelve years and so far our manager is pleased with my work. Anyone can do it, just keep practising. Good luck.
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#6
12-05-2003
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Quote:
Actually doing it requires the hardest sacrifice anyone can make: doing something you don't want to do. You have to discipline yourself to learn, to practice, and to perservere, and constancy is the key. Binging for 4 hours one day is not anywhere near as effective as writing for half an hour each day. It keeps your mind constantly engaged and looking for lyrical and musical ideas. got mojo? www.voodoovibe.com
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#7
12-05-2003
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And one more thing....
For me personally, I look at songwriting as more of lasting footprint. I want to leave this planet having done something at least somewhat enduring. All the guitar playing I've done will just amount to a little pushed air, but a collection of my songs that might still be performed after I'm gone, even if only by my children, will at least say "Hey! I was here! This is what made me laugh. This is what made me cry." Holy crap... I'm way to young to be thinking like this! got mojo? www.voodoovibe.com
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#8
12-05-2003
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so you're a filthy cross-poster! ah well, here's my take that I also posted in the guitar thread. Remember, you got all these people saying you can do it...I would say you don't have to if you don't want to...
quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is why I will never make money with my playing, 'cause I don't have my own material. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ok. This is a major incorrectitude. In fact, it couldn’t be farther from a truthitude. The VAST MAJORITY of people who make money playing music do so BECAUSE they play other people’s music. Songwriting is as hard a racket as there is to be successful in, and if you don’t feel it, there are better things to worry about. Possible ways to make money w/o writing songs. -studio guitarist (Got a friend in LA working on some hip-hop chick’s album making a $100 an hour. Granted, he works 6 hours a week but that's not bad.) -playing in cover/tribute bands (Hello? Wedding bands? Tribute bands? If you’re playing at a professional level, picking up the popular music required by these acts should be a breeze. It won’t get you on MTZ or whatever, but it will definitely make you dough.) -teaching (Again, if you’re as good as you say you are, there are always teaching opportunities. It’s a little different because you’re no longer performing but this has nothing to do with songwriting and it makes cash.) So there you go. Personally, I’m 25 and I’ve been playing for 13 years so I can see where you’re coming from. The question you really have to ask yourself is; do you really want to write songs and don’t know how or do you just want to know why you don’t want to write songs? Answer that, and you’ll be on your way somewhere. ~Stone
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#9
12-05-2003
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Stone's got it right.
Andrew Loog Oldham (who knows a thing or two) said that if you do anything in music other than for the love of doing it for its own sake, then you're basically fucked from the start and it can only end in misery. All the other posters encouraged you and pointed out ways to help you write songs, and they gave great advice. There's no reason in the world why you can't take their tips and go on and write songs - but you have to want to write songs for the sake of writing songs. Best of luck and let's hear something from you 
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#10
12-06-2003
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Thanks for the replies. I think it's more clear to me now. The main reason I never really wanted to write songs, even when I tried to force myself, is it always felt so fake, like I was doing it only 'cause I should be. And whatever words I came up with were bullshit stories or whatever, nothing that means anything to me. I guess I'm a shallow guy.
As for musical ideas, I don't know. I just don't have any. When ever I try to come up with something, it always ends up sounding like one of my favorite songs ... always sounds copied. I guess I'm just going to start working on it slowly. Thanks a lot guys, you've all been very helpful!
__________________
Markku Kivinen
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#11
12-06-2003
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Anybody can write a song.
Anybody can write a novel. Yes, the elements of songwriting (or any art) can be considered a craft that can be learned--much as one can learn to paint with oils--but you can study the craft and practice writing songs for eight hours a day 365 days a year and never produce any memorable material if you haven't been gifted a measure of talent. I look at it this way: learning the craft will get you to the ballpark, talent will get you in the game. I think I'll go practice my jump shot.
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#12
12-07-2003
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my take on it...
I have sort of an esoteric philosophy when it comes to songwriting. I truly believe the songs are out there in the ether somewhere and we just have to reach out and grab them. Having said that, I am also going to add that there is certainly a degree of craft involved in even being able to receive one of those little gems! My advice to anyone who wants to write songs is to keep it simple and try to stay outta the way. Find a groove, choose a few chords that sound good together, and see what melody/words come. But, allow yourself time to bond with the groove and the chords....maybe a riff will develop out of that and from that riff might come a melody etc...nuture the song. Remember some of the greatest songs are simple melodies, and just a few chords. And from there you can evolve into writing more intricate stuff. More often than not, once you've connected with a song, it will guide you. At least that's what I've found. Do not try to critique your work while you are writing it, and always keep the tape rolling...you might play with a tune for twenty minutes and suddenly that one perfect phrase or hook will come flying out that will define the whole song. So you wanna capture that moment. Also, pick some songs/songwriters that you love and figure out what makes them stand out for you. Inspiration comes in different forms to different people , so it really helps to connect with the music you love. Stay open! Hope this helps somebody out there...
~Kester www.raucoustic.com
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#13
12-07-2003
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Re: my take on it...
Quote:
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#14
12-07-2003
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I agree with tdurex, "you can study the craft and practice writing songs for eight hours a day 365 days a year and never produce any memorable material"
I have done the same, felt the same and still do. I just finished a writing a song and recording the music to it. So far, everyone loves it and it's making hits at the shows; but as for me I think it's crap. (I should write an article about this.. this is an interesting converse.. I think that is.) Like a record agent we had, he didn't know how to write songs or sing them... but wanted to be in the music industry.. so he practiced another craft... signing bands. =) "It’s five o’clock in the morning, I can’t sleep ‘cause I hear many aeroplanes flying over. I begin to wonder if you’re in one of them flying to a destination, without me. The hot tears fall from my eyes, into my dreams of you and I in paradise......" see? crap
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#15
12-08-2003
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Yes it needs skill but...
It can be thought also.
And don't be disappointed with it. It took more time for Ringo Starr to make a contribution to Beatles. Here is a few recomendations. 1. Learn theory. Outcome will still be fake but thing will be much easier. 2. Change your listenning habbits. Don't try to enjoy music but try to analyze. Take a pen and paper. Note everything that makes that song a song. then make note of the things you like about that song. Try to find answers to whys and hows for those sections. 3. RECORD YOURSELF. I can't stress this enough. 4. Don't sit on it to do it. Wait for the times when your emotions are in peak. Try to explain your emotions musically. This will be real. 5. When you create 2-3 main parts you can begin to arrange and garnish it. This is where step one is needed. 6. Practice your instrument more. One of the reason most people can compose is they can play their instruments as they want (or play the melodies they imagine) instantly and easily. Don't force and criticize yourself too much. You will do it in the and when you really need to express yourself through it.
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#16
12-09-2003
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Quote:
Sage advice. Beware of this one folks. He knows quite a bit Signed, John Scott (for Bob's benefit) Good to see you over here.
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#17
12-09-2003
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Quote:
BTW...I suck on the guitar...so we're even 
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#18
12-09-2003
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I started playing trumpet in 4th grade and continued till I graduated from high school. I started playing guitar when I was in my early teens and switched to mostly bass before I was 20. I played a lot of covers, invented a few things, but the fact is I didn't really know what a "creative mode" was until I broke up with a girl after being with her for 7 years. That happened in my late 20's and I was utterly miserable. It was at that point that musical ideas, born and raised on nylon string guitar, just starting coming to me almost non-stop. It takes me years, even decades, to write a verse of lyrics. But musical ideas are rarely a problem.
For me, musical ideas are associated with the instrument, the skill involved in playing it, it's tone and feel, the range of expression... rather than the abstracted musical concept. Over the years (I'm 48 now) I've gotten the sense that most stringed instrument players develop their ideas right on their instrument, whereas keyboard players are better able to abstract musical ideas away from the instrument. Does that make sense?
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#19
12-09-2003
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Ok. This is a major incorrectitude. In fact, it couldn’t be farther from a truthitude.
stonepiano Holy shit,...thats funny! Agtronic,......Am I getting this wrong? Youve been playing guitar for 15 or 16 years,..and you havent made up stuff? Or is it that the stuff you come up with,...sucks? Surely over that time period you MUST have come up with riffs that really jam. Put some of your favorites together and VIOLA,..youre half way there. If you havent come up with ANYthing in 15 years,.....ummmmm,..well,...maybe you dont have it in you. Somebody's gotta bitch me out for sayin' that. And,..well,...its probably deserved but,...15 years!!!!! Yikes! Later,... Calwood
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#20
12-09-2003
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Quote:
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#21
12-10-2003
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EddieRay is right. being a virtuoso doesn't neccesseraly mean that you have to be a maestro also.
My cousin plays "Kanun" ( a local and very hard to play instrument) since he was 4 and he was signed to be a professional since he was 6. I am sure his knowledge of music theory beats anyone around here. He is 20 now and not yet any composition but he plays like a dream. He says that there were lots of pieced waiting to be played why he had to bother making a new one. ???
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#22
12-10-2003
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Quote:
Actually, I wrote something once, I was 11 or 12, some guy came over and told me this chick wanted to know me, so he told me to record a song and that she'd go crazy for me if I wrote something for her and this guy wasn't a musician or anything, but he knew I played well. Turns out he told the girl he wrote the song for her. (Apparently she wasn't too impressed either). The song was, A, C, D, in a loop. Most basic piece of garbage I ever played. But I can record something like "Always with You, Always with Me" by Joe Satriani and it will sound exactly the same, bend for bend, same feel and everything. But I can't invent anything for the life of me. What really sparked this new interest in songwriting for me was George Harrison's Cloud Nine album. My dad bought it back in the day, when it had just came out, and I've listened to it since I was a little guy, but just recently I started listening to it again, and I was amazed at how well the chords worked together, the harmonies are just amazing. I don't understand, the chords are right there, so simple, just simple rules of harmony, but for some reason, it's like they just go so well together when George Harrison writes the song. "This is lo-lo-lo-lo-love ..." just BEAUTIFUL songs, they give me goosebumps.
__________________
Markku Kivinen
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#24
12-10-2003
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I know fine classical musicians who cannot improvise to a 12-bar blues.
Most anything seems easier if you know how to do it already. There are all different kinds of songwriters, from super-successful pop machines who are more about craft than art to avant-garde experimentalists who never let anyone hear their work. I agree that almost everyone has the potential to write songs, especially if quality and originality are not considerations I think that if you've done it before in an inspired way you can go back and do it even if you are not inspired. You can get your brain back into it. Synapse memory. Most people can't write songs at all. They can't get their brains to work that way. On the other hand, Agtronic, you ARE a musician, and you want to write, not just because you feel you should, but also because you want to have that sensation of having created a really cool song. But the fact that you've been making music for so long without being able to write anything tells me that you can't just sit down and do it. First, you have to learn how to open up the part of yourself that will make it possible for you to write. (This is a different way of looking at the "grabbing it out of the ether" theory.) You may ask yourself, "how"? Ah, grasshopper, this is a question you must answer for yourself. Meditation? Psychoanalysis? Getting dumped by someone you love (see above)? Days of uninterrupted sex? Reading? Going to museums? Golf? Consider the possibility that the artist in you sees the world with different eyes.
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#25
12-10-2003
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all things come in time I heard..... I hope thats true cause I'm a fucking terrible musician atm
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