Tascam 424mkIII Help!!!!

[Greykitkat36]

I just bought this 4-track brand new for $330. However, I dont really how to use a 4-track to record 5 band members at one time and except to get around 9 tracks on the tape. (casette). Im looking to record Bass, Drums, 2 Guitars, and vocals. ANY HELP WOULD BE GREATLY APPRECIATED.

[The Green Hornet]

Yo 36 Kats:

Get the drums and chords down, then overdub bass, vocal.

If you're going to bounce tracks, remember, you will lose some control.

If you bounce drums/chords to one track, any eq or reverb you apply will go to BOTH intruments and this is not really the best.

Once you get the beat recorded with chords, the rest is easy; if you screw up a lead track, just do it over until you get it right.

Green Hornet

[Greykitkat36]

But what if I wanted to record everything at the same time?

[Mark7]

Well, since you have six channels to play with how about...

Channel 1: Singing (direct to track 1)
Channel 2: Lead guitar (direct to track 2)
Channel 3: Rhythm guitar (direct to track 3)
Channel 4: Bass guitar (bussed to track 4)
Channel 5: Kick drum (bussed to track 4)
Channel 6: Overhead (bussed to track 4)

And PRAY you never have to retrack bass and drums

[A Reel Person]

because the 424mkIII's BUSS and DIRECT mode recording do NOT adequately separate the DIRECT parts from the BUSS assigned parts, so therefore, your recommendation is unfortunately not feasible on the 424mkIII. Sorry!


I think the best solution would be to score the Tascam M30, 8 input/4 buss mixer, and mix 8 raw inputs to 4 output buss signals, then LINE OUT from the M30's 4-BUSS OUTs, into the 4-INPUTS [1-4] on the 424mkIII, and RECORD IN DIRECT MODE.

This is a good solution to what you're asking to do, but it does involve buying a whole other higher functioned mixer, to use in conjunction with the 424mkIII's basic 4-DIRECT recording mode.

Thanx, bye!

[Greykitkat36]

well our band is thinking about recording an album withabout 9 tracks, and we think that one tape (both sides) can all be recorded on the Tascam 424 MkIII. Is this legit? Can it work? Also, can u record one full song on just track 1 with 5 insruments? iam kind of lost. I was thinking of doing this:

Track 1- Lead, Rythmn Guitar, Drums , Bass, Vocals.

Or can u do this and still get it on one track?

Track 1- Vocals
Track 2- Lead Guitar
Track 3- Rhythmn Guitar
Track 4- Bass
Track 5- Drums
Track 6- Drums (Overhead)

Much help would be greatly appreciated.

[pM of impk21.co]

"and we think that one tape (both sides) can all be recorded on the Tascam 424 MkIII."

I jus wanna make sure we are on the same page. I own a 424 but its been a while since ive recored with it. Both sides of the tape, are you referring to your finished product? Or are you referring to the actual tape in the 424 itself?


"Also, can u record one full song on just track 1 with 5 insruments?"

Dont see why you couldnt homie. I mean, I guess if your band really has their music down you could. Its jus during the mix down all five of those instruments, recorded to track one for an example, will be treated as "ONE" track, but I guess if you have all your instruments tweaked there would be no reason why not. And then you will have your other tracks 2-4 to record additional tracks.

"iam kind of lost..." dont worry man, in one way or another we all are...keep askin questions, there are a lot of experienced, helping people on this board, you'll get it...pM

[formerlyfzfile]

"well our band is thinking about recording an album withabout 9 tracks"

Do you mean to say that you have 9 songs you want to assemble into an album???...or that each song has 9 parts?????

If its 9 PARTS and you need to record it all live then you will need an addition mixer to sub-mix the 9 parts into 4....because the 4track can only record 4 TRACKS at a time.

"and we think that one tape (both sides) can all be recorded on the Tascam 424 MkIII."

The 424 uses the entire width of the tape to record its 4 tracks.
A standard recorded album on cassette has 4 tracks of information........Side A Left and Right, going in one direction....and Side B Left and Right going in the OPOSITE direction.
A standrd cassette player plays only one half, or 2 tracks at a time and when you flip the tape over it plays the other two tracks going in the other direction so that it doesnt sound backwards.

Sooooo.....this means that if you record on all 4 TRACKS of a cassette on the 424 and play it back on a regular stereo you will only hear TRACKS 1 and 2.
If you flip the tape over in the stereo, you will hear TRACKS 3 and 4 but the will be playing BACKWARDS.

Conversely if you put a standard recorded album into the 424 and pull up all four faders you will hear BOTH Side A (from channels 1 and 2) and Side B (in 3 and 4 playing BACKWARDS) at the same time.

This is a good way to freak out your parents.....especially if you do this late at night and have your room all dark except for some black candles and have a dead chicken on a little alter with its head freshly severed while you chant along with the middle two tracks of the album and.....well anyways.....I digress.

So you can either use a mixer and sub-mix all of the parts onto 4 tracks live.
Or you can overdub bounce the tracks so they stack up to 9 or 10 tracks.



The manual has a pretty good step by step for getting up to 10 (i think) tracks onto tape by bouncing and overdubbing.

Either way..........you THEN need to mix down the 4 track recording to some sort of two track format ....whether it be to your cassette stereo, a computer, or a stand alone CD burner.

You can even mix down to a VCR.

Hope this helps and sorry if I oversimplified.

-mike

[Mark7]

Originally posted by Greykitkat36
well our band is thinking about recording an album withabout 9 tracks, and we think that one tape (both sides) can all be recorded on the Tascam 424 MkIII. Is this legit? Can it work? Also, can u record one full song on just track 1 with 5 insruments? iam kind of lost. I was thinking of doing this:

Track 1- Lead, Rythmn Guitar, Drums , Bass, Vocals.

Or can u do this and still get it on one track?

Track 1- Vocals
Track 2- Lead Guitar
Track 3- Rhythmn Guitar
Track 4- Bass
Track 5- Drums
Track 6- Drums (Overhead)

Much help would be greatly appreciated.

FIRST OF ALL the 424 (MkIII) is a FOUR TRACK. That means it only has FOUR TRACKS. NOT six.

If you really want stereo drums the best thing to do would be to buss the drums, bass guitar, rhythm guitar and any backing vocals to two tracks (either 1 and 2 or 3 and 4), and then print lead vocal and lead guitar to their own, separate, tracks. This will require the use of a submixer: especially if you want more than two mics on the drum kit.

Note: Any effect you want to add to the compound tracks will have to printed to tape as once the instruments are recorded you won't be able to vary the amount of any effect according to instrument (e.g. if you want the bass and kick dry, the snare and rhythm guitar to have a little reverb, the overheads to have a bit more and the backing vocals to have more still then you'll have to add it whilst tracking, as once the instruments are together on tape they'll all get the same amount of reverb. Note: this doesn't apply to lead vox and guitar; which have their own tracks).

If I were you I'd make sure each member of the band really know his/her parts before I'd start committing their genius to tape. Also, learning about things like intonation (for the stringed instruments) and drum tuning, if you don't already know about these things and how to do them, would be a good idea. And if the drummer if a complete doofus and refuses to have any truck with such radical notions as tuning his kit: hit him.

[Mark7]

Ah, you don't want stereo drums. Sorry. I was confused by the way you used drums twice.

If you are only going to have the drums in mono then you could print the drums, bass and rhythm guitar to track 4, leaving tracks 1 to 3 for vocals and lead guitar.

But the fourth paragraph still stands, regardless.

[supertramp1979]

I couldnt help but notice this, thread. I have the most simple answer to the problem. For each of the four channels, there is two inputs (XLR, 1/4"). Use four XLRs and two 1/4" cables. This will diminish the quality of sound, but since you guys are recording on a 424 i cant imagine you guys being too picky. Try to mix the tracks as close together....so for track one, you would have two instruments layered, use the closest relating instruments. Two guitars on channel ONE, by means of XLR and 1/4". Bass drum and bass guitar on channel 2, the same way. Then your two leftover tracks (3,4) go to the most important tracks-overhead drums, and vocals. I hope this makes sense, because it works Ive done it. You can technically record 8 things at the same time this way without buying a mixer. Its not going to sound like a 30ips recording make no mistake! Make sure to demagnetize your heads after every time you use the machine, might be overkill but some people let it sit around.

[Mark7]

30 IPS is severely over-rated. 15 is good enough for most Rock and Pop recording

Your method is interesting. How does it work exactly? I always assumed the 1/4" jacks on the 424 MKIII were line level only.

[Mark7]

And to add, I'd personally put instruments with contrasting tonality on the same track. That way you can use the tone controls to increase the perceived loudness of one without affecting the other too much.

But, whatever works for you

[supertramp1979]

hey - to answer your question "How does it work exactly?" is kind of difficult, but Ill try. Or maybe you already understand and are just asking a different question?

on tracks 1-4, there are XLR ins, and also 1/4" ins for each channel/track. The great thing is if you use the XLR AND 1/4" ins at the same time, it will still pick up both signals for that one track. Since its picking up the XLR and 1/4 signal, they each sort of lose a little bit of power. But if you do this with similar instruments (guitar on guitar) it wont matter too much if you raise the volume up a bit, and make sure the guitars are at equal volume in the first place. But maybe you already understand all of this, and were asking something else? It doesnt matter anyway, because I dont feel my first post really brought the answer home, since its kind of a tricky thing to put in to words. Not trying to patronize anybody. Tascams are too much fun

[A Reel Person]

the Tascam 424mkIII manual warns against using the XLR and 1/4" inputs simultaneously on any one channel. That's because it sets up electrical condition for impedance/loading mismatch on the channel_input_mic_pre. It's a condition, that if you're not careful, may wind up blowing the mic_pre on that channel.

Although you can get the 1/4" and XLR inputs to conduct signal simultaneously on any single channel, there's the risk it might harm the equipment. Tascam warns against it, and I wouldn't go there.

HINT: Who reads the manual, anyway?? [Ha]

Anyway, getting back to my previous suggestion,... instead of improperly loading each channel with two inputs simultaneously, just get an outboard 8-input/4-buss mixer, such as the M30, and proceed from there.

Sorry to contradict, or if I repeat myself often!

[supertramp1979]

Well Ive done that at least 20-25 times with my little band and nothing happened, so I dont know. I dont know what kind of impedance the manual is discussing with a regular dynamic mic. What I dont understand is why dont they just get the rhythm tracks down live and overdub vocals, and the two guitars? It doesnt have to be live, and If a club isists thats its live (they want to know how youl sound when you play) just lie. But if this guy is saying it might screw your machine up i guess I wouldnt do it. But maybe three years ago I did this a bunch, and nothing happened. But back then I was a naive dude and i never read the manual. So heres another option I guess, why dont you just put the two guitar amps really close and throw a mic in between. It will pick both guitars up, and then put the bass amp right next to the bass drum and put a mic in between and then you have two tracks left for vocal and overhead drums. I bought an 8-track player that records, and and fast-fowards, and its the best thing Ive bought for 3 dollars. But the 1/4" ins were kind of dead so I had to have my step dad who works at monster build me female XLR to male RCA so I could run in the back, and whenever I want to record my band I use the eight track. Sounds better than any four track machine any day due to the electronics.

[Greykitkat36]

Let me try to make my question clearer.

My band wants to create a CD (cassette for now obviously), by recording on the Tascam 424 MkIII. This includes 9 full band songs. Am I able to make 9 full band songs with a four track and 1 cassette? or will i need mulitiple cassettes? we are recording with ....

Drums
Bass
Rythmn Guitar
Lead Guitar
Vocals

we are going to bounce and try and get all 5 instruments onto every track. (9 that we plan to record) Then mix down and make it a CD by using a CD recorder when i get the money to buy one.

In conclusion, is my band able to make 9 full band songs on one cassette (c-90)?

[Mark7]

You want to have ALL the instruments on EACH track!?

E.G.

Track 1: Vocals, Guitars, Bass, Drums
Track 2: Vocals, Guitars, Bass, Drums
Track 3: Vocals, Guitars, Bass, Drums
Track 4: Vocals, Guitars, Bass, Drums

Please say it ain't so

[Greykitkat36]

Originally posted by Mark7
You want to have ALL the instruments on EACH track!?

E.G.

Track 1: Vocals, Guitars, Bass, Drums
Track 2: Vocals, Guitars, Bass, Drums
Track 3: Vocals, Guitars, Bass, Drums
Track 4: Vocals, Guitars, Bass, Drums

Please say it ain't so

I wasnt sure if the MkIII was able to do that. Now is the 4 tracks all going to be on just one side of the cassette? (A) , or will 2 be on A and 2 on B?

[Mark7]

But you don't need to do that.


Why, in God's name tell me WHY would you want to do something that stupid?

And, yes, all four tracks are on one side of the cassette.

[The Ghost of FM]

If all of your 9 songs can be played in 22:30, you can record them on a singular cassette.

Odds are you will need two cassettes to get all 9 songs recorded, giving you 45 minutes of total recording time.

On a Portastudio, you do not flip the cassette over. You record everything, (all 4 tracks or channels on the tape) in one direction.

To get all the mentioned instruments onto those 4 tracks or channels of tape, you will have to record bass, drums and guitar to a stereo, live off the floor recording which will use up two of the tracks and with the remaining 2 tracks or channels of sound you will have to record the balance of your instrumentation and/or vocals.

This will at least give you a true stereo recording if you mix well as you are recording and will allow you on mix-down to at least balance the bed tracks against the lead tracks; solo instruments/vocals.

Cheers! and good luck with your project!

[Greykitkat36]

Originally posted by The Ghost of FM
If all of your 9 songs can be played in 22:30, you can record them on a singular cassette.

Odds are you will need two cassettes to get all 9 songs recorded, giving you 45 minutes of total recording time.

On a Portastudio, you do not flip the cassette over. You record everything, (all 4 tracks or channels on the tape) in one direction.

To get all the mentioned instruments onto those 4 tracks or channels of tape, you will have to record bass, drums and guitar to a stereo, live off the floor recording which will use up two of the tracks and with the remaining 2 tracks or channels of sound you will have to record the balance of your instrumentation and/or vocals.

This will at least give you a true stereo recording if you mix well as you are recording and will allow you on mix-down to at least balance the bed tracks against the lead tracks; solo instruments/vocals.

Cheers! and good luck with your project!

Thanks for your help. I believe though all nine come to a total of around 50 min. So I suppose I need 3 cassettes. Also, after We are done getting all nine tracks recorded, what are the choices for mixdown? Just a Stereo? Thanks, like I've said before im really new to this stuff and I just want a clean recorded album for our band. I think I can go direct to the MkIII being im drums and I have my parts down perfectly.

[supertramp1979]

If you have that many songs, I wouldnt record on 60 or 90 minute tape, because all the re-winding and fast-forwarding is going to stretch your tape out like a bitch. Secdond, I would read your manual. I dont mean to be partonizing, but even I read the manual sometimes, and it makes things a lot clearer to someone who doesnt know anything. Most people here answering your question know a good deal of four track-"intelligence" so were talking in two different worlds. I would suggest you use a 30 minute tape for each song, so nine 30min tapes, and record at the high speed setting. You can cram all the 9 songs together once you mix down (VCR, cassette, 8-track, PC), but you can also learn this easier through the manual but who am I to speak? Ive had my hang-ups as well

[Strryder]

If I'm understanding the way you want to put these songs onto the 4 track, it sounds like you've got the whole concept of the multi-track recording process all wrong.

For what I think you want to do, you NEED mixer with at least 8 channels,

Mixer Channel

1 singer
2 GTR
3 GTR
4 Bass
5 kick drum
6 snare drum
7 drum over head, one is fine if it's gonna be mono anyway
8 drum over head ? (pan 'em L/R if you come to your senses and record at LEAST in stereo)

For the MONO method..

If it's a stereo mixer, turn ALL the channel pan controls to "left" then plug the left output from the mixer into channel 1 on the 4 track, arm track 1 and hit record, play the song, rewind the tape and listen, if the instrument balance isn't right, re-adjust the mixer volume settings, rewind the tape, and do it again, repeat until you're happy with the results.

To do the second song, repeat all of the above steps EXCEPT plug the mixer into channel 2 of the 4 track and record onto track 2.

Doing it this way will leave you with 4 mono songs on 4 seperate tracks of the 4 track, whether or not you can squeeze any more songs onto the tracks will be determined by how long the first set of songs are, be careful not to accidentally record over anything thats already done.

For the STEREO method..

You would get better results if you set up a stereo mix and recorded it to tracks 1 and 2, panned left/right, then recorded the next song onto tracks 3 and 4 panned left/right, this would give you at least 2 songs per cassette, maybe even 4 (if they're short enough) and they would be in stereo, to do stereo, use both the left AND the right outputs from the mixer, and pan your instruments accordingly.

You know... you could have saved the money on the 4 track and used a stereo cassette deck plus a mixer for this.

If you want to have any reverb on the tracks, you will need a reverb unit patched into the mixer's aux send/return and balanced correctly.

It'll be a "live" recording, that's for sure.

Remember, this is a live recording, you have to keep doing the songs over and over until you get a take that kicks ass, there will be absolutely no fixing anything in the mix, because you are recording the mix.

Getting enough headphones/extention cables/headphone amplification for everyone would be a top priority, try to isolate the singer as well as you can, along with the GTR/Bass amps, remember, everyone will sound better if they are getting a good monitor mix off the mixer, for the singer, being able to hear a little reverb in the cans might make for a better performance, I would certainly NOT even try to record/compete with a PA system, headphones are the way to go.

[Mark7]

Originally posted by Strryder
If I'm understanding the way you want to put these songs onto the 4 track, it sounds like you've got the whole concept of the multi-track recording process all wrong.

Okay.

For what I think you want to do, you NEED mixer with at least 8 channels,

ch 1 singer
2 GTR
3 GTR
4 Bass
5 kick drum
6 snare drum
7 drum over head, one is fine if it's gonna be mono anyway
8 drum over head ? (pan 'em L/R if you come to your senses and record at LEAST in stereo)

For the MONO method..

If it's a stereo mixer, turn ALL the channel pan controls to "left" then plug the left output from the mixer into channel 1 on the 4 track, arm track 1 and hit record, play the song, rewind the tape and listen, if the instrument balance isn't right, re-adjust the mixer volume settings, rewind the tape, and do it again, repeat until you're happy with the results.

To do the second song, repeat all of the above steps EXCEPT plug the mixer into channel 2 of the 4 track and record onto track 2.

Doing it this way will leave you with 4 mono songs on 4 seperate tracks of the 4 track, whether or not you can squeeze any more songs onto the tracks will be determined by how long the first set of songs are, be careful not to accidentally record over anything thats already done.

For the STEREO method..

You would get better results if you set up a stereo mix and recorded it to tracks 1 and 2, panned left/right, then recorded the next song onto tracks 3 and 4 panned left/right, this would give you at least 2 songs per cassette, maybe even 4 (if they're short enough) and they would be in stereo, to do stereo, use both the left AND the right outputs from the mixer, and pan your instruments accordingly.

The whole idea of this is making me crazy... you could have saved the money on the 4 track and used a stereo cassette deck plus a mixer for this.

If you want to have any reverb on the tracks, you will need a reverb unit patched into the mixer's aux send/return and balanced correctly.

It'll be a "live" recording, that's for sure.

Remember, this is a live recording, you have to keep doing the songs over and over until you get a take that kicks ass, there will be absolutely no fixing anything in the mix, because you are recording the mix.

Huh?

Why would s/he want four mono mixes on four separate tracks? You're quite clearly as insane as s/he is.

Listen up Greykitkat. THIS is how you're going to do it.

1: Gather together as many mics and D.I. boxes as you can: including large and small diaphragm models, and Condensers and Dynamics (note: you'll need Phantom Power with the condensers).

2: Stick two small diaphragm condensers (such as the Oktava Mk-012) on separate tall boom stands. Place one two drum sticks high over the snare and the other two drum sticks high over the drummers right shoulder. Then, using a piece of string adjust them until the kick and snare drums sit nicely in the middle (you'll know when that is because if you assign the kick and snare to two tracks both meters will should show the same level).

3: Stick a large diaphragm dynamic (such as an AKG D112) on a very short boom stand and place it (the mic) in the kick drum. Adjust position and distance until you hear the sound you like.

4: Put a small diaphragm dynamic (such as an SM57) on a medium height boom stand. Place this mic over the snare, about two inches up and two inches in. Make sure it's not somewhere the drummer will hit it.

5: For the Rhythm Guitar you can either go direct (just plug it into one of the channel strips) or you can mike up a cab. Ditto for the bass.

6: Okay. Now that's all miked up we're going to record the rhythm section. To do this you need to do the following

i: . Set all Input Select switches to Mic/Line
ii: Push all Channel faders plus the Stereo Master Fader into the shaded area
iii: Put a tape (C90 or c60 will work, as long as you use a high quality brand ) in the recorder section. Arm tracks 3 and 4
iv: Have the musicians play their instruments (one at a time is best) and turn up the trim controls in each channel until you get a healthy signal (about +6 on the meter is acceptable)
v: Pan the instruments to where you want them in the soundstage (usually that's bass, kick and snare: centre, overheads: far left and far right and rhythm guitar: off centre in either direction).
vi: Adjust the trim controls and channel faders until the relative levels are satisfactory.
vii: Record the rhythm section for as many songs as will fit on the tape you're using (just two tracks, remember). Then put a new tape in and record some more. Repeat until finished (don't forget to label the tapes).

Now we should have

Track 1: Blank
Track 2: Blank
Track 3: Rhythm Section Left and Centre
Track 4: Rhythm Section Right and Centre

On all the tapes.

Tell me what else you want (just a lead vocal and guitar? Or lead vocal, backing vocals and lead guitar)