writing in dif time signature

[A1A2]

hello, all, I believe this is my first time in this particular forum, so, hi

I've been writing with 4/4s and 3/4s for awhile, so I thought it's time to do something different. So, i made this 7/4 loop(I think) and it's sounding pretty good right now, but once I grab my guitar, piano or even bass, I find myself staring at the floor for minutes and not having a clue where to start!

So, I was wondering if there is some kind of way to break down the beats and make my life a little easier.

Al

[Aaron Cheney]

If you want a lesson in writing in odd time sig's, listen to Ten Summoner's Tales or Mercury Falling by Sting, particularly the songs "Seven Days", "I Hung My Head", and "Love is Stronger than Justice."

I also love the way Led Zepplin approached odd metre. John Bonham and JPJ would lay down a rock solid 4/4 groove, and Jimmy Page would play a guitar riff in like 7/4 or whatever, so you ended up with a monster groove with a guitar that feels like it's on a back-beat every other time through. They did this all the time. Listen the "The Ocean" or "Black Dog" for examples.

got mojo?
www.voodoovibe.com

[ZOWIE!]

Treat it like compound time -- break it into 4 +3, or 3 + 2 + 2, etc.

Listen to Take Five for a simple example. It's 3 + 2.

[mikeh]

I agree that breaking complex times into smaller counts (i.e. 3+2+2) makes counting much easier. However, the only way to play in odd time well is to learn the feel of a song to a point where you can feel the time (rather than count the time).

I work in a jazz/rock group that plays many 5/4, 7/8, 9/8, etc. - even an 18/8 (which I had to break into two 9/8 sections and then sub-count those), and at some point after counting at a few gigs, the feel always comes and the counting can stop.

As much as I enjoy the challenge of playing in odd times I rarely write in odd time. Wen I have my lyricist hat on, I simply find it easier to tell the story in 4/4.

[chazba]

I used to use "WIPEOUT" in 7/4 as a break tune. We played it as 4+3....count it out , it's pretty cool. Used to drive the dancers nuts!!!

chazba

[Cyrokk]

I agree with mikeh. The best way to write in a different time signature is to know what the odd meters feel like, and the fastest way to learn it is to listen to other songs and play with them. The Beatles "All you need is love" and Pink Floyd's "Money" are in 7/4, Led Zep's "Four Sticks" and Soundgarden's "Black Days" are in 5/4. And when listening to any song that doesn't have a 4/4 feel, counting in your head is always a good idea.

Don't forget 6/8 either. It's probably considered more of a standard tempo but it's fairly neglected and always has potential.

After awhile you'll get to the point where you'll create a great melody or riff and then afterwards realize it's not in a standard tempo.

Cy

[A1A2]

Originally posted by Cyrokk
After awhile you'll get to the point where you'll create a great melody or riff and then afterwards realize it's not in a standard tempo.

Cy

actually that has happened to me a couple of times before. I had this baseline in my head, but was never able to play it alone with a drum loop on computer....

thanks for the suggestions, guys. I've found that breaking it up to 3+4 really makes everything a whole lot easier. I will listen to those tunes you guys mentioned. Thanks!

Al

[Cyrokk]

Oops.. actually, "Black Days" is in 6/4.. however, "My Wave" is in 5/4.

Cy

[Dr Hoss]

odd time sig's are the best...i piss my bass player off regularly with 7's and 5's and 1-beat tags and 3-beat measures thrown into a 4/4 riffing song...bwa ha haa!...
being a music major, i'm used to that sort of thing...being an old-school metalhead, he's not...i love it!!!

[A1A2]

Originally posted by Dr Hoss
odd time sig's are the best...i piss my bass player off regularly with 7's and 5's and 1-beat tags and 3-beat measures thrown into a 4/4 riffing song...bwa ha haa!...
being a music major, i'm used to that sort of thing...being an old-school metalhead, he's not...i love it!!!

that's the scary thing about music major peeps. I am pretty careful in front of them cuz you never know if they are watching you like you were a monkey!!

[Dr Hoss]

i feel like such an ass....i just realized that i didn't respond to your question at all!

To break down beats, all you really have to do is exactly what you said....break it down. Use basic mathematics. Instead of counting like this: ONE and TWO and THREE and FOUR and ONE... count like this: ONE TWO THREE FOUR FIVE SIX SEVEN EIGHT ONE....that way when you decide to throw in odd time sig's and strange little numbers, you don't have to worry about if it comes on the "and" of two or ON three, etc....just that it's 3 beats long or 5 or 6 or whatever. Basically, speed up your counting without speeding up the music...count the half beats as beats themselves....8 fast beats to a bar instead of 4 slow ones. Kinda long winded way to say it, but I hope it helps a little. Let me know if there's anything else I can help you with...I love those mixed time sigs!

[A1A2]

Originally posted by Dr Hoss
i feel like such an ass....i just realized that i didn't respond to your question at all!

To break down beats, all you really have to do is exactly what you said....break it down. Use basic mathematics. Instead of counting like this: ONE and TWO and THREE and FOUR and ONE... count like this: ONE TWO THREE FOUR FIVE SIX SEVEN EIGHT ONE....that way when you decide to throw in odd time sig's and strange little numbers, you don't have to worry about if it comes on the "and" of two or ON three, etc....just that it's 3 beats long or 5 or 6 or whatever. Basically, speed up your counting without speeding up the music...count the half beats as beats themselves....8 fast beats to a bar instead of 4 slow ones. Kinda long winded way to say it, but I hope it helps a little. Let me know if there's anything else I can help you with...I love those mixed time sigs!

no worries, bud. You didn't offend anyone here I've noticed that counting the beats faster (halfs instead of wholes) really help me to keep up with the timing in general. Have you heard the song "Changeling" by DJ shadow? It's a pretty straight forward 4/4 beat taken from the a band named, Meters, and tweaked to 7/4, quite interesting. Let me know if it's really a 7/4 if you've heard it before.

Al

[rguagenti]

Give these a listen and count out the beats.

Jethro Tull - Living In The Past = 5/4

Peter Gabriel - Solsbury Hill = 7/4
12345 6 7 | 1 2345 6 7 | 1
Climbing up on Solsbury Hill I could see the city lights

Theme From Mission Impossible = 5/4


The best way to learn is to listen and count it out. You will know when a song is not in 4/4 time. Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to figure out what the time sig is.

The more you hear them the easier it will be to count them out.

[rguagenti]

I tried to count out the beats to the lyrics, but it didn't work.

Anyway, "Climbing up on Solsbury Hill..." comes in on beat 5
"I could see the city lights..." comes in at beat 5.

Hope this helps.

[Dr Hoss]

Rule no. 1: Don't listen to the singer for the time. Listen to the drums and bass. The singer isn't really bound by time, as he's the melody and is able to just improvise over the top of the band. If you've ever heard anything from Tool, you will probably understand this.

Rule no. 2: Use the smallest beat division you can get to before moving to lower numbers. If you can count 8 beats in one bar and they seem to be in groups of 2, odds are you are in 4/4. Count 16 beats in a bar and they are in groups of 4....same thing...4/4. If you want a good chance to practice your counting and beat-division skills, listen to my band's song, Retch.....you can find it here. http://artists.iuma.com/site-bin/streammp3.m3u?470380 (yes i know, it's a shamless plug, but hey...where better eh? )

Rule no. 3: Remember that a written time signature may be different from what you hear. You may count 4 beats to a bar, but they may be grouped strangely, thus putting the piece in another time signature entirely. For instance, if the band groups the half beats into 3, 3, 2, you might still count 4 large beats to a bar since there are 8 small beats, but the band will be feeling ONE two three ONE two three ONE two...only 3 large beats. Your interpretation and the band's may be different....keep this in mind.

No more for now....sleepy Hope I've been of some assistance!

[quazack]

This is all awesomely true. The only advice I can give is to totally submerge yourself in crazy, whacky offbeat music so that you become desensitized to it; you'll become more natural with it; and that will help you with the vocal lines (which is the hardest part of odd time signatures... particularly I've found with 5/4). But you'll hear all sorts of different vocal parts for songs, and you won't consciously transcribe the rythms, but they'll go into your subconscious. And they'll combine with eachother, make babies, and be born again out of your mouth.

[A1A2]

Originally posted by Dr Hoss
Rule no. 1: Don't listen to the singer for the time. Listen to the drums and bass. The singer isn't really bound by time, as he's the melody and is able to just improvise over the top of the band. If you've ever heard anything from Tool, you will probably understand this.

Rule no. 2: Use the smallest beat division you can get to before moving to lower numbers. If you can count 8 beats in one bar and they seem to be in groups of 2, odds are you are in 4/4. Count 16 beats in a bar and they are in groups of 4....same thing...4/4. If you want a good chance to practice your counting and beat-division skills, listen to my band's song, Retch.....you can find it here. http://artists.iuma.com/site-bin/streammp3.m3u?470380 (yes i know, it's a shamless plug, but hey...where better eh? )

Rule no. 3: Remember that a written time signature may be different from what you hear. You may count 4 beats to a bar, but they may be grouped strangely, thus putting the piece in another time signature entirely. For instance, if the band groups the half beats into 3, 3, 2, you might still count 4 large beats to a bar since there are 8 small beats, but the band will be feeling ONE two three ONE two three ONE two...only 3 large beats. Your interpretation and the band's may be different....keep this in mind.

No more for now....sleepy Hope I've been of some assistance!

no, I do't find it a shamless plug at all, it's a quick demo, saves me time to hunt down mp3s online. I really dig the idea of switching to 8/8 during the heavier parts of the song. Thanks for the link and all the help.

Thanks, everyone

Al