km184 or sm81?

[tkingen]

I've been recording acoustic guitar with either a pair of Oktava MK012's for stereo or a Nuemann KM184 for mono. Not being happy with the Oktava's, I'd like to upgrade.
So, the question is whether to purchase another KM184 to make a stereo pair, or buy a pair of Shure SM81's. A pair of SM81's would cost about the same as one KM184. Also, I'm not entirely sure what the SM81's sound like.
Can anyone offer advice?

Thanks,
Terry

[acorec]

Originally posted by tkingen
I've been recording acoustic guitar with either a pair of Oktava MK012's for stereo or a Nuemann KM184 for mono. Not being happy with the Oktava's, I'd like to upgrade.
So, the question is whether to purchase another KM184 to make a stereo pair, or buy a pair of Shure SM81's. A pair of SM81's would cost about the same as one KM184. Also, I'm not entirely sure what the SM81's sound like.
Can anyone offer advice?

Thanks,
Terry

Get another Neumann and use them as a set. Any other choice sends you off into another direction. If you are unhappy with the Neuman, you won't be happy with the Shures.

[Big Kenny]

why not a large condenser? or two? or one of each?
In His Name
BK

[omtayslick]

Never heard the neumann. Have an SM81. The 81 is a good all around mic.
Here's a second hand comment for you: " The Shure SM81 is a pretty woman. The Km184 is a pretty woman with make up on. "
That probably doesn't help, but I thought it was witty when I first heard it.

[NathanEldred]

The SM-81 is horrible for any price. Sorry if that offends, but that's what I hear. I used to own a pair many moons ago, got rid of them as quickly as possible. It sounds lo-fi and the mids are strange and unpleasant. I get people in to mix who record in their bedroom and sometimes they use these, it usually takes a pair of Chandler 1073's and some Trakkers to save them. The Neumann is an excellent microphone, there is better than the Neumann, but it costs quite a bit more and is only perhaps subjectively better (i.e. Shoeps, DPA).

Nathan Eldred
atlasproaudio.com

[kid klash]

Originally posted by omtayslick
Never heard the neumann. Have an SM81. The 81 is a good all around mic.
Here's a second hand comment for you: " The Shure SM81 is a pretty woman. The Km184 is a pretty woman with make up on. "
That probably doesn't help, but I thought it was witty when I first heard it.

I'd go along with omtayslick. I've owned a pair of SM-81's for eight years now, and IMHO, they are one of the most linear and honest SDC's available. If you want extra fizz or anything more or less than the original source, these aren't the mics you want. What you hear at the source is what they capture. They are pretty much a studio standard and a great addition to any mic locker. You see them on tour a lot as overheads and for acoustic instruments. VERY popular with jazz and bluegrass musicians.

[Outlaws]

You should listen to tJohnsons stuff in the MP3 clinic. He uses a SM81 and I am in awe of his sound.

[tkingen]

Thanks for the opinions and feedback. As always, mic choice is very subjective...and that's good! The next step will be to try to borrow or rent an SM81 to make comparisons.
I've attempted to listen to tjohnson's mp3's, but at the time a connection couldn't be made. Have to try again.

Thanks,
Terry

[ChristopherDawn]

Originally posted by NathanEldred
The SM-81 is horrible for any price. Sorry if that offends, but that's what I hear.

Just to add something to the conversation, this is the complete opposite of everything I've ever heard about SM-81s on this board. I think this is the first negative thing I've heard about them.

[omtayslick]

Yeah,
That is interesting. I've heard people say they preferred another mic over the SM81, but I've never heard anyone call it junk.

But I've seen Nathan make some other "out of the mainstream" recommendations. So maybe he hears a little differently.

As for the 81, I think it's a safe bet. It's often cited as a standard mic with which to compare other SD consdensers.

It is true to source, so maybe what Nathan didn't like was the source.

[NathanEldred]

Originally posted by omtayslick
Yeah,
That is interesting. I've heard people say they preferred another mic over the SM81, but I've never heard anyone call it junk.

But I've seen Nathan make some other "out of the mainstream" recommendations. So maybe he hears a little differently.

Or maybe it's just an educated opinion. You have to remember it's my job (both of them) to A/B 95% percent of the gear that's on the pro market. When you have all this stuff at your disposal you start to develop very specific preferences, and the reasons to back them up.

It is true to source, so maybe what Nathan didn't like was the source.

Not true, it's been on multiple sources in multiple rooms, ranging from average to great players and average to great rooms. So it wasn't like some garbage tin can acoustic guitar or drummer in a room with 30 modes. I'm not begrudging anyone their opinion, I just want you to realize it's not just some off the wall idea. If you put a KM184 and a SM81 next to each other coincident on the same source, and you think the SM-81 is great more power to you. But when I hear people say "I haven't heard the KM-184, but the SM-81 sounds incredible", it makes me wonder about their point of reference. incredible to an AKG C1000, maybe. One man's junk is another man's good too.


------------------
Nathan Eldred
atlasproaudio.com

[Tonio]

Sure the 184 is head above the 81, but I think they are talking in terms of budget constraints.
Its like comparing the184 to DPA and Scheops....

[omtayslick]

Hey Nathan,
Just kidding. I am aware of your position, and have checked out your company's website a few times. Unfortunately, Tonio's right.
That stuffs out of my league dollar-wise. (But I STILL like my 81)

[Armistice]

So,

On a scale of 1 - 10, how would you rank the following mics for recording steel string acoustic guitar (not as OHs) purely in terms of sound perfomance. NOT PRICE (ie. good for the money...)


MXL603
Oktava MK012
SM81
KM184


Just after your personal opinion - not trying to start flame wars.

I'm asking because I have MXL603s and am thinking of trading "up" - I can get either SM81 or KM184 relatively easily (Australia) - not sure about Oktavas - wondering where to go to - the price isn't necessarily a consideration.

Obviously if you haven't heard all these mics you won't be able to give them a score, so whatever you've personally dealt with...

Cheers

[DJL]

Originally posted by tkingen
I've been recording acoustic guitar with either a pair of Oktava MK012's for stereo or a Nuemann KM184 for mono. Not being happy with the Oktava's, I'd like to upgrade.
So, the question is whether to purchase another KM184 to make a stereo pair, or buy a pair of Shure SM81's. A pair of SM81's would cost about the same as one KM184. Also, I'm not entirely sure what the SM81's sound like.
Can anyone offer advice?

Thanks,
Terry

tkingen, I think it would be easier for others to try and help you if you tell them why you don't like the Oktava MC-012 on your acoustic guitar and what you want the mic to sound like as compare to the MC-012... i.e brighter, etc. Oh and the Shure SM81 is what I call a pretty neutral sounding or flat type mic.

[tkingen]

DJL,

Good suggestion. In my experience, the MC012 sounds mushy on the transiets and a little midrangey. The KM184 is nice and full bodied, but the upper frequencies usually need a little taming.
I also have a Shure KSM44 and 32. They are certainly good mics, but neither are as full bodied as the KM184.
The ultimate would probably be a combination of the clarity of the KSM44 with the full body of the KM184.
I know that one solution would be to just use the KM184 and apply eq, but I'd rather get it "right" in the tracking.
I appreciate the interest you guys have taken in this post!

Terry

[Richard Monroe]

I think the Studio Projects C-4's are very comparable to the SM81's, and at a much lower price point. The KM184's are better mics, but at a higher price point than a pair of Josephson C-42's.
I've used all of the mics under discussion except the Josephson's, which come highly recommended by a bunch of heavy hitters. Many users familiar with both prefer the older KM84's to the KM184's. Another mic you have not apparently considered is the AKG C451.
I think these are the best buys at their price point by a combination of experience and the opinions of those I trust.- For wicked cheap, the Oktavas. Low mid-priced- Studio Projects C-4's.
High mid-priced- AKG C451. High end- Josephson C42. To die for- Earthworks/Schoeps. The fact that you own one of the Neumanns makes another attractive, though. What the hell, I'd probably do that if I were in your position. They may not be *great* mics, but they are very, very good mics.-Richie

[sdelsolray]

I think the whole decision is fairly simple. You already have a KM184. Get another one. If you are really on the fence with the 184, then dump it, spend the $$, don't fool around, and go Schoeps CMC64, Josephson Series 6 (not the C42) or DPA 4011.
--
Stephen Boyke

[acorec]

Originally posted by sdelsolray
I think the whole decision is fairly simple. You already have a KM184. Get another one. If you are really on the fence with the 184, then dump it, spend the $$, don't fool around, and go Schoeps CMC64, Josephson Series 6 (not the C42) or DPA 4011.
--
Stephen Boyke

Ahmen. Go with the Neumann and have a great pair of mics.

[DJL]

Originally posted by Richard Monroe
I think the Studio Projects C-4's are very comparable to the SM81's, and at a much lower price point.

I've never heard the 797 Audio/Studio Projects C4 but I think the Shure SM81 will hold it's value longer... making it a better investment.

[littledog]

This isn't picking on DJL, as he's undoubtedly right about gear that's been around a long time "holding it's value" more than gear that is new and unproven. His post just happened to stimulate some random thoughts.

I tend to wonder how important "holding value" is, especially with microphones. After all, how many of us sell our microphones when we're ready to buy a new one? I'm sure some of us do, but a lot of us can't bear to do it. (You never know, someday i might actually find a use for that C1000...). We just keep adding to the collection.

My main point, though, is I think the whole way of viewing equipment as an investment is a bit of the tail wagging the dog. If that was a primary consideration, no one would ever buy a computer or just about anything else that was digital, since everyone knows in about three years, chances are, it will be obsolete and worth as much as a can of Pepsi.

The reason to buy gear is because it will pay for itself in terms of the value and usefulness it gives the user. Does it expand your capabilities, improve your sound, make your life easier, let you work faster, attract clients, etc.? These are all probably more important reasons to buy something than what you think it might be worth in five years.

If you want to make speculative investments, you're probably better off with rare coins or stamps or some other collectibles. Buy gear for the reasons listed above. Most if not all of the gear you buy will NOT increase in value, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't buy it.

Sorry for being somewhat off-topic.

[omtayslick]

Right on target Littledog!

And to further muddy the waters--Anyone ever use a Crown CM700? Supposed to be similar to the SM81 with a little richer sound.

http://www.prorec.com/prorec/article...2567AE0050A4B5

[Giganova]

I don't quite understand what the problem is:

you have already one KSM184 and you like it. Now you want to do stereo recording of the same sources and you consider getting mics you have never heard (like the SM81)? Why don't you just get another KSM184 coz you know already that you'll love the sound? The Neumann KSM184 is awesome, especially for acoustic guitar (I have one, too), so you can't make a wrong decision when you get another one.

[tkingen]

Giganova,

It's kind of like having a tv remote in your hand...you may like the program that's on...but your wondering what else is on, too!
Seriously, this is a matter of curiosity. Each mic has it's own list of characteristics and I'm curious about them.

Thanks,
Terry

[Giganova]

Originally posted by tkingen
Giganova,

It's kind of like having a tv remote in your hand...you may like the program that's on...but your wondering what else is on, too!

I know how you feel, man. Its like as soon as you have a nice g/f, all other girls look so pretty, too But seriously, I'd stick with the KSM184. Its hard to beath that mic. There's a store in England where they still sell it for EUR 450.- plus 30 buxx for FedEx 3-day shipping to the US. That's where I got mine, and no-obe asked me for import tax either. That's a pretty good deal after Neumann raised their prices. I can look up their web site if you want.