Understanding Chords and Composing!!!!

[Raydio]

I read an idiots guide to music theory and it helped me understand scales and chords more. Still there are things I still can't understand. I make nice hip hop beats, and I see all this talk about chords. I know lots of R&B have chords but I dont understand what all this shit means. I understand chord voicing a little, where as you can play a C-E-G chord with the C note being in a totally different octave as the E-G. What I really cant understand is CHORD PROGRESSIONS. In the book it talks about all this I-IV-V stuff, but Im clueless on how to implement this in my music. I dont understand it.

For example in the key of C (which is the only key I play well in), I play C-E-G, then F-A-C-, then G-B-D which is supposed to be I-IV-V and it just dont sound right. They say that the amount of time you hold the note doesnt matter or when you play it. I NEED TO HEAR AN EXAMPLE OF A PROGRESSION BEING PLAYED. I read that its so many songs that use the I-IV-V, but I cant tell. My ear isnt very good, but I do know Im not playing things right or playing the chords for too many measures. Im aiming for an everyday professional progression that you hear in current hip hop and R&B.

I want to learn how to come up with a chord progression in the key of C preferbably, but in other keys too. I find myself making beats now with just melodies and counter melodies, and they sound like they need a chord progression on top. I hear the progressions in my head, but im not sure what chord Im thinking of. Is there an easy way to apply chords to a melody once I know what key Im playing in? I hear about songwriters using a basic progression, then making a melody on top of it. How can I at least try out this formula without knowing how to come up with a progression?

I would appreciate if someone were to upload examples of chord progressions or tell me about current hip hop or r&b songs and break down how they are constructed. Im using a piano Soundfont in Fruity Loop Studio. I have Band In A Box, they tell me to enter chord progressions then it generates a melody; I cant do this because I have no idea of how progressions work. I hate to sound like a supreme newbie, please just answer my questions with respect. Thanks you and god bless

[lumbago]

OK - it takes a fair while to be able to hear and predict song chord changes. Some people never actually develop that talent, but have brains wired better for other things, in the same way that some musical arrangers never master ice skating.

Chords are really just a way of supporting a melody. So practice writing/singing/playing a melody (start with nursery rhymes - seriously) and accompanying yourself on your instrument.

Nursery rhymes are usually diatonic (meaning C major scale holding all the possible notes used in the melody), and they use just a few chords.

[LI_Slim]

If you really want to learn something about composing music, throw away the idiot's guide and actually learn something about music theory. Take piano lessons or something. Read a book. Learn how to figure out the changes of recordings while you play along.

The way you are going about this is like asking an electrician to tell you how to rewire a lamp before you know what an electrical outlet is.

If you want respect as a musician then respect music.

[Aaron Cheney]

The IV - V - I progression is really easy to understand, and you already know it, you just don't realize it. It is used in probably 75% of all songs you have ever heard. (Well... at least 50%).

Remember the theme song from the old Batman series? It went:

Na Na Na Na Na Na
Na Na Na Na Na Na
Batman! Batman! Batman!

Guess what? It's a IV - V - I.

How about Silent Night....IV - V - I.

Louie Louie......IV - V - I.

Just about any blues song you can name......IV - V - I.

Trust me... you already know the sound of this chord progression.

Here's what it means:

Say you're in the key of C. Therefore the C chord ( C-E-G) is the I. Just count up the musical alphabet from there and asign each letter it's corresponding roman numeral. Like this:

C=I
D=II
E=III
F=IV
G=V
A=VI
B=VII

So, if someone said "PLay a IV - V - I", you would play the IV, which in this key is the F chord(F, A, C), then the V, or G chord (G, B, D), and then resolve it to the C (C, E, G). That's it. YOu've heard it a million times.

Now if someone said "PLay a II, V, I" , which is a common jazz progression, you would look at your little chart above and play a D chord, then the G chord, and then resolve it to the C. There is a slight problem though, becuase the D would need to be minor in order to stay in the key of C. When a chord is to be minor, people generally write the Roman numeral in lower case. Thus, our progression would look like this:

ii, V, I.

I'll leave it up to you to find out which chords need to be major or minor to remain in key. You're theory book should certainly have that info for you.

A chord progression is nothing more than a series of chords played one after the other. That's it. That's all. There are, however, certain sequences of chords that sound better than others, and that's why you end up with common progressions such as the IV - V - I and ii, V, I.


got mojo?
www.voodoovibe.com

[Raydio]

Thanks for the post, but Im still confused. I listen to the Batman song but I remember about it is what you posted. I cant figure out how long to play chords progressions and how to loop them. I keep getting mixed signals. My book states the I-IV-V, and you state the IV-V-I.

Which is it, WOULD SOMEONE BE GENEROUS ENOUGH TO UPLOAD AN EXAMPLE OF A PROGRESSION IN ACTION? I appreciate your post because its leaning me towards what I need to know. I just really need to hear for myself. Thanks and keep the tips coming!

[Aaron Cheney]

Originally posted by Raydio
Thanks for the post, but Im still confused. I listen to the Batman song but I remember about it is what you posted.

Huh? Now I'm confused.

I cant figure out how long to play chords progressions and how to loop them. I keep getting mixed signals. My book states the I-IV-V, and you state the IV-V-I.

IV-V-I and I-IV-V = the exact same thing. They are not meant to spell out every single note you are supposed to play, but rather to describe the sound of the progression and its resolution. If you need every single chord spelled out, what you need is sheet music.

Which is it, WOULD SOMEONE BE GENEROUS ENOUGH TO UPLOAD AN EXAMPLE OF A PROGRESSION IN ACTION? I appreciate your post because its leaning me towards what I need to know. I just really need to hear for myself. Thanks and keep the tips coming!

There is no need to do that. YOu've heard in a million times (literally!). Go get your guitar (or piano) and just play it: F, G, C. If doing that baffles you... then I'm afraid LI Slims advice might be the best for you right now: Learn to play an instrument.

got mojo?
www.voodoovibe.com

[rguagenti]

If you ned to have the progression sent to you then that is not enough for your purposes.

Let me try this:

The note progression that Aaron sent you ifollows the same principal as the chord progression:

Play these chords for four beats each: C - F- G That is I, IV, V
Used in at least 1.5 million songs to date.(if not more)

C - G - Am is I - V - VI (If you know the key of C, you know why the VI is a minor chord)(holds true in every key by the way)

The root note of the key is always the I chord in the progression.

Therefore in the key of F(Key signature is a flatted B) the F chord is one soooo

F - Bb - C is I - IV - V in the key of F
F - C - Dm is I - V - VI in the key of F.

Can't make it any easier.
Actually, I pretty much said the same thing that Aaron said.

If this doesn't get to you, then music lessons are in order - any instrument. Or, take a songwriting course.

Good Luck

[Raydio]

Originally posted by Aaron Cheney
IV-V-I and I-IV-V = the exact same thing. They are not meant to spell out every single note you are supposed to play, but rather to describe the sound of the progression and its resolution. If you need every single chord spelled out, what you need is sheet music.
[/B]

Now we are getting somewhere!! So you mean to tell me that the I-IV-V isnt meant to be the same notes I am supposed to play? So does that mean that I can play a progression like I-I-V-I-IV-I and it will still be considered I-IV-V format?? Instead of telling me to learn an instrument, just try to see why Im confused. I listen to Batman like the average listener, I dont listen for chords, all I hear is what you posted lol. Once I know how a chord progression sounds in a song I can pin point it in the future.

I seem really dumb asking this stuff because you already know the info and I dont. I understand that entirely. Im just trying to get incite on playing progressions and end this confusion without spending hundreds on lessons that relate to genres and topics I will never come across. That Idiots Guide To Music Theory helped me a lot visually, but I wasnt able to hear things put in motion so Im still kinda lost on certain things. As always your tips are wonderful, keep them coming my friend. Cheers!

[Raydio]

Originally posted by rguagenti
Play these chords for four beats each: C - F- G That is I, IV, V
Used in at least 1.5 million songs to date.(if not more)

Good Luck

Ohhh ok, Im getting it now. What I did was this, correct me if Im wrong. I played CEG for 4 beats, then I played FAC for 4 Beats, then I played GBD for 4 beats, lastly I played CEG again for 4 beats.

If Im right, tell me how Im supposed to loop this; do I start at CEG again (the I chord) or do I just go to FAC (the IV) chord? Another thing, I also heard of being able to play chords for less than a whole 4 beats and playing them anywhere in a measure, not just at the start.

If I have a melody already, how do I go about adding chords on top of it?

[rguagenti]

I tend to hear both together, but if you can post a wav or mp3 of the melody I'll give it a shot and explain the theory.

If you want to give it a shot, figure out the notes within the melody and insert the chord that fits with those notes. If your melody consists of enotes and c notes and g notes, what chord would you place there, Probably a C(or I) chord. If it consists of dnotes, f notes and a notes, probably a Dm(or ii) chord.

There is no rule that says a chord occurs at the beginning of a measure. It could be placed on beat one, two, three or four. You can hold it for four beats, or one, or two, or three, or six or... I think you get the picture.

Let your ears be your guide. It might be tough from the get go, but the three most important words I can say at this point are

PRACTICE
PRACTICE
PRACTICE

Rock On or Rap On.

[Raydio]

Ok time to nip this problem in the bud... Ive a file that contains 3 rap song examples. These three songs contain chords, I just would like someone to analyze the theory in the songs.

I have the songs fading from one to the next so be sure to listen to all 3 examples.

I would like to know which progression they are playing, which key the song is in, and any other relevant information you can list in regards to the songs. The file is entitled "Analyze". Thank you guys so much, this will be huge.

The song is called "ANALYZE THIS"
http://www.soundclick.com/analyzethis

[CyanJaguar]

I could spot the chord but not the progressions.

I just wanted to tell you that you have some hard, edgy beats. That's where hip hop is going right now so you are in great shape.

[lumbago]

I-IV-V is not intended to be a sequence of chords, but a suite of chords you can play in any sequence.

So it also implies IV-V-I or V-IV-I or I-V-IV and so on - a 12 bar blues is usually somthing like

I-I-I-I-IV-IV-I-I-V-IV-I-V

The idea is that if the C major scale comprises the following MELODY notes

C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C

These melody notes can be harmonized with the following chord sequence (ie. the melody is part of the harmonizing chord)

C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C
I-V-I-IV-V-IV-V-I

Notice that the I chord (C major, comprising the played notes C-E-G) has the C melody note in it, and they sound together.
Notice that the V chord (G major, comprising the played notes G-B-D) has the D melody note in it, and they sound together.
Notice that the I chord (C major, comprising the played notes C-E-G) has the E melody note in it, and they sound together.
Notice that the IV chord (F major, comprising the played notes F-A-C) has the F melody note in it, and they sound together.
Notice that the V chord (G major, comprising the played notes G-B-D) has the G melody note in it, and they sound together.

When the melody note is part of the chord that sounds at the same time, the effect is usually pleasing.

[Raydio]

Finally, i think i got it!!! One question. When you speak of the "melody notes", for example the C melody note.... are you refering to the key that the melody is in or the note playing at that time. Like for instance, if I hit a C on the keyboard, is that when I play the I chord, or can I play the I chord when my melody contains the notes C E and G?? Thats all I need to know. Thank you so much!

[HomeRec]

Okay... first, to clear up your current question, a "melody note" is simply a note - in this case, the "melody", or primary, note. Playing that note does not mean you have to play the chord that starts with that note.

Example:

Play a basic IV (fourth) chord (in the key of C this is an "F" chord: [F A C]) If you sing or play along with the chord (play the melody), then each note you play/sing would be the "melody" notes.

Let's take a basic song: Mary Had a Little Lamb. What are the chords, and what are the notes?

Mary Had a Little Lamb (In "C")

I
E(3) D(2) C(1) D(2) E(3) E(3) E(3)
Mary Had a Little Lamb

V
D(2) D(2) D(2)
Little Lamb

I
E(3) G(5) G(5)... E(3) D(2) C(1) D(2) E(3) E(3) E(3) E(3)
Little Lamb... Mary had a little lamb whose

V
D(2) D(2) E(3) D(2)
Fleece was white as

I
C(1)
Snow

Note the numbers next to the notes... these represent the same thing as I, II, etc. In a scale, the position of a note in the scale is its description... in C major, C is a base/"first" note, D is a "second", E a "third", etc. A chord is noted by the primary (base) note it is built on.

To make things more confusing, a chord has three primary configurations... 1 3 5, 3 5 1, and 5 1 3. For the major key of C, for example... [C E G] [E G C] [G C E] (read lowest to highest). Therefore, E G C, though it doesn't start with "C", is still a "base", or "first" chord.

This notation is very handy when you want to transpose a piece of music (play it in another key... G instead of C, for example)

As to your beats...

[first beat]
First, first... first... fifth, minor seventh, minor seventh, fifth, first.
(no true "chords" or chord progression)

[second beat]
[I] (C)
First, first

[ii] (diminshed second) (D flat)
dim. second... minor seventh, dim. second

[I] (C)
First
(there really aren't chords here, either... my notations are implied)

[third beat]
vii[min7 2 4] I[1 dim3 5]... I[1 dim3 5] I[1 dim3 5]... VI[1 4 dim6] VI[1 4 dim6]... vii[dim7 2 4] I[1 dim3 5]
(this one's ALL chords... the numbers next to them are the notes that make up the chord. "dim" means "diminished", another term for "one half-note down from".


If you want to get all the details, most likely explained better than I was able to here, then you might want to consider a music theory course. Of course, knowledge of music theory isn't really necessary to write songs... I wrote songs for years before I knew the words to describe everything... and I still don't know it all!

Sorry for the length of this post... the true answer to your questions is a fairly thorough explanation of the basics of theory. Hope this helps... it can be very confusing. Cool beats, too, by the way... keep it up!

P.S. - To verify that you have the basic music theory terminology down, identify the following song:

(I)1 1 2 3 1 3 (V)2 low5 (I)1 1 2 3 1 (V) low7 (I)1 1 2 3 (VI)4 3 2 1 (V)low7 low5 low6 low7 (I)1 1

(eldood eeknay si rewsna ehT)

[BloodShark]

Sorry for going off-topic, but this must be one of the biggest replies ever!

[HomeRec]

Originally posted by BloodShark
Sorry for going off-topic, but this must be one of the biggest replies ever!

Tell me about it. I didn't want to leave anything out, though... like I said, the answer is essentially an explanation of basic music theory, which in itself is complex.

Of course, the reason the post was as long as it was was due to the neccessity of formatting the notation correctly. Hard to line up columns using a non-fixed width font.

Some replies to posts in other areas (like the Dragon Cave, for example) are the above length or longer... and they're usually solid text!

[Raydio]

Originally posted by BloodShark
Sorry for going off-topic, but this must be one of the biggest replies ever!

Yup and I appreciated every word, that shit was very informative. I think if a lot of post were that much in detail some questions wouldnt have to be asked over and over again.

[chazba]

This thread illustrates why I hate loop software. Maybe it's fun for the musically challenged to play mix-n-match with the loops and create, no, assemble some fun rhythms, but it ain't the same thing as writing music. There is no magic pill you can take or idiot's guide that you can read that will enable you to "get it" instantly. It takes lots of study and practice to get a grip on theory and to access the "art" that may be in you.Music is not a video game that can be figured out in an evening, unless you are a genius, in which case you wouldn't have started this thread. My advice to you is to enjoy what you can about making music any way that you can. Meanwhile, keep working on a degree in business or forestry so that you can support youself and have a few bucks left over to buy and enjoy the musical products of those who "get it" intuitively .

That felt good........chazba

[Raydio]

Originally posted by jerberson12
I think this thread already ended up but can i add something?

Yes yes, add more! Im reading and enjoying all of the information that is given to me. Keep the tips coming guys, Im sure there are many more that value this thread more than me.

[jerberson12]

ok here a better one. I just deleted my first reply.
Got an attachment.

[Dr Hoss]

Trust me on this.....play what sounds good. If standard chord progressions (I-IV-V-I, I-IV-ii-V-I, etc) don't sound good to you, go out on a limb...do something that people don't predict. That's how you make a mark and set yourself apart from the masses...do something other people don't do, and do it well.

I'm a music major studying for a master's degree, so I know all the music theory you could ever want to know. I just find that when people play music, things don't tend to flow in standard patterns all the time. If you like the way something you do sounds, stick to your guns....be proud of not following the pack!

[Raydio]

Very good post Jerberson! This thread is great. I've learned so much since when I first posted. Dr. Hoss; Im starting to feel what you are saying. There is one song that catches my ear, and its amazing because I want to know what chord progression they are playing. The song is entitled "You Dont Know My Name" by Alicia Keys. The song is great to those who enjoy all music.

[Dr Hoss]

just snagged a copy of that alicia keys song....here's what i've found initially....

the bass line follows basically A major (isn't that the title of her album? Songs in A Major? or something like that?)...first full measure of the verse starts on a B minor or dominant (probably half-diminished, if that means anything to you), then goes to C# as a minor dominant......chorus just goes A major, B minor (or dominant or half diminished, depending on who you ask ), C# major or dominant......standard motown-type chord progression, rising by major 2nd's. Several small-value chords thrown in around the end of measures for effect, as well as the bass line doing cool descending patterns. Neat little R&B song. hope that helps a little!