Is it better to plug the mics into the xlr or the 1/4" inputs of the 424mkIII? (help

[SeaOwl]

I'm running some mics through dmp-3 pres into the 424mkIII.
The 424 allows mics to be plugged in through either an xlr plug or a 1/4" plug. My question is, since the dmp-3 only has 1/4 " outs, does it make any significant difference if i use 1/4" connectors to connect the pres to the mkIII? or should i try to get 1/4" to xlr plugs to connect the pres to the tascam?

THanks for your help
(and sorry for posting this twice. i got two answers last time i posted this, one saying to go in 1/4 inch and the other saying to go in xlr, so they kind of canelled each other out).

My best,
Dave

[Derek Verner]

XLR is considered better because it is more exotic. Actually both are the same.

[cjacek]

Originally posted by Derek Verner
XLR is considered better because it is more exotic. Actually both are the same.

I agree. No difference at all. Some would actually argue that the 1/4" is better but having tried both, I say they're both similar.

Daniel

[SeaOwl]

thanks so much for the help
D

[cjacek]

Actually, a slight addition to my earlier post:

I can't remember if it was the 424mkIII or 414mkII or both that I tried the xlr or 1/4" and it seemed to be at the time that the signal to noise ratio was better on the XLR. Now, I've also used a vintage porta 244 and 246 and both have 1/4" only and the quality is better than the 424/414's XLR's. I'm not sure what the conclussion is.

Daniel

[formerlyfzfile]

I mean ....I have a 424MKII and its been quite a while since I lost the manual, but aren't the XLR inputs configured for a Mic level signal and the TRS for a Line level signal????

Or are they both dual purpose???

Thats the way many mixers are configured isnt it?


-mike

[ronsmith]

I thought the xlr were mike level and 1/4 were line level.

[cjacek]

Originally posted by ronsmith
I thought the xlr were mike level and 1/4 were line level.

I think you're right ron. 1/4" doesn't necessarily mean mic level and on the 424mkIII that seems to be the case. My vintage 244 and 246 portas, however, have only 1/4 inch BUT they're mic level. Every bit as good (as relating to s/n ratio) as xlr's on the 424.

Daniel

[johneeeveee]

...so, if the 1/4 inputs on my 244 are mic level, does that mean i could benefit from using a balanced trs cable going in? i use an outboard mic pre blended with the 244's on board pre's, and the outboard pre has balanced trs outs. should i use a balanced cable, or would a regular 1/4 do just fine?
thanks - jv

[cjacek]

Originally posted by johneeeveee
...so, if the 1/4 inputs on my 244 are mic level, does that mean i could benefit from using a balanced trs cable going in? i use an outboard mic pre blended with the 244's on board pre's, and the outboard pre has balanced trs outs. should i use a balanced cable, or would a regular 1/4 do just fine?
thanks - jv

Just wanted to add to my previous post that the 244/246 1/4" inputs accept both mic and line level signals. Thus, I believe, you're fine using whatever 1/4" cable you've got. If I'm wrong then could someone please jump in ?

Daniel

[johneeeveee]

... do you think there would be any s/n ratio benefit in using the balanced trs cable?
thanks - jv (fellow old skool 244 user)

[A Reel Person]

so you should NOT use a balanced TRS 1/4" input cable.

I checked the 424mkIII manual. There's a 10db difference, spread in sensitivity between the XLR and 1/4" jacks, as follows:...

-The XLR inputs will sense a MINIMUM signal -10db LESS than the 1/4" jacks, & MAXIMUM level is also -10db LESS than the 1/4" jacks.

AND...

-The 1/4" jacks' bottom limit will sense a MINIMUM signal +10db HIGHER than the XLR, but it will also accept a MAXIMUM signal +10db HIGHER than the XLR jacks.

There's just a little more pad, [resistance/impedance] in the 1/4" jack than the XLR jack, and that was fashioned by design, to allow the 1/4" jack to accept hotter input levels, like from electric guitar.

424mkIII, XLR:
[TRIM=MIC, 1mV MINIMUM],
[TRIM=LINE, 0.1V NOMINAL],
[TRIM=LINE, 1.4V MAXIMUM],
Impedance, 3.6K ohm.

424mkIII, 1/4" unbalanced jacks:
[TRIM=MIC, 3mV MINIMUM],
[TRIM=LINE, 0.3V NOMINAL],
[TRIM=LINE, 3V MAXIMUM],
Impedance, 5.6K ohm.

SO, on a 424mkIII Portastudio, given that there are minor differences of the XLR and 1/4" minimum sensitivity, nominal & max input levels, I believe both XLR & 1/4" jacks can be used with either mic or line, as long as you adjust the TRIM properly, and don't exceed minimum & maximum limits. Also, don't use XLR and 1/4" inputs on any channel simultaneously.

If your preamp's output is -10db/nominal balanced signal on 1/4" TRS, then your best bet is to use a balanced cable and balanced-to-unbalanced transformer/adapter, directly to the 1/4" LINE TS/UNbalanced inputs, with thePorta's trim turned all the way down, [TRIM=LINE].

You could use the XLR connectors if your preamp's output is -10db/nominal on XLR, but you'll have to compensate in LOWERING THE PREAMP'S output -10db, [to -20db/nominal], in order to match the higher sensitivity and lower nominal signal you'll need on the XLR, [TRIM=LINE].

I wouldn't use an external preamp, necessarily, but whatever floats your boat is okay with me. However, when using an external preamp with a Portastudio, the gain staging is twice as important.

The 424mkIII lacks a true overload LED, that the 244 and 246 provided, so you'll have to be extra careful to not overdrive the input stage, when using a 424 with an external mic pre.

[johneeeveee]

... so, please forgive my ignorance here, but i was asking about the 244 inputs. i know you don't condone using mic pre's with the porta's, but i'm still wondering if i have a balanced signal coming out of my mic pre, if i could get a better s/n ratio by using a balanced trs cable into my 244. are the 1/4 inch mic/line inputs on the 244 the same as the 1/4 inch line inputs on the 424? i was under the assumption that the 244 inputs might take a broader range of signal, therefore a balanced line might give me a quieter signal.
thanks for taking the time to answer this specific question... you are definitely the man when it comes to these tascam porta's.
peace - jv

[A Reel Person]

I aimed my previous answer at the 424mkIII, so I'll consider the other questions, & check the 244 manual if necessary, in a short while! BRB!_

[A Reel Person]

the quick answer is that if you're using an external preamp, you may use the 1/4" inputs and OL led to set up a connection, or FWIW, you may undo the ACCESS-SND-RCV jumpers, and patch the preamp's output directly into the RCA-unbalanced inputs,... given that your preamp will deliver a -10db unbalanced line signal on RCA connectors.

I'll reread all the questions, and maybe address more later.

[A Reel Person]

then I'd recommend using a 3-conductor/balanced cable that had a male/TRS connector on one end, and a male/XLR on the other end, with one of those female-XLR-to-male-1/4"-UNBAL transformer-adapters,... connected to the 1/4" unbalaced input of the 244, trim set to LINE.

That sounds like the easiest combination.

I did not check the 244 manual for exact specs, TBD.

[chessparov]

It's quieter to use the "inserts", to avoid going though the pre and EQ section. Harvey Gerst told me this in response to almost the same question, at his forum at www.prosoundweb.com BTW.

Your gain will drop to about 51dB, however, as the DMP3 has 66 dB of gain going XLR to XLR. One trick is to patch a compressor in the chain if you need a bit more signal boost for line level.

For example, I can go;

SM57>VTB-1>(unbalanced)RNC>(insert)Tascam 244.

Chris

P.S. As Reel indicated, sometimes you have to play around with
the signal chain gain settings to even things out.

[A Reel Person]

Originally posted by A Reel Person
the quick answer is that if you're using an external preamp, you may use the 1/4" inputs and OL led to set up a connection, or FWIW, you may undo the ACCESS-SND-RCV jumpers, and patch the preamp's output directly into the RCA-unbalanced inputs,... given that your preamp will deliver a -10db unbalanced line signal on RCA connectors.

I'll reread all the questions, and maybe address more later.

[johneeeveee]

so, here's my signal chain:

mic--> xlr cable--> vtb-1(mic pre) --> 1/4 unbal--> mic/line 244

i mix the trim on the 244 pre's with the vtb-1 output and get a much quieter signal than i normally could with just the 244 pre's (although they seem to help round out the sound... they do sound very good, just not quite quiet enough when pushed a bit).

does this seem logical, or is there some other way that might work better (s/n ratio)?

maybe?:

mic--> xlr cable--> vtb-1(mic pre) --> xlr cable/line bal trans--> 244

i realize that although my vtb-1 has balanced xlr and trs outs, the 1/4" mic/line inputs on my 244 are unbalanced, so i'm guessing a (short) unbalanced 1/4" cable is probably as good as it's gonna get, signalwise... right?

thanks for all the help - jv

[A Reel Person]

Just keep the unbalanced cable to a minimum length, if possible, otherwise, unbalanced cable not to exceed ~12'.

You should do just fine with that!

Yes, having the 244's OL LED is an excellent guide to gain setting on inputs. I don't know why Tascam did away with all the OL LED's in all it's later models? The [4] input OL LEDs are a huge benefit to have, onboard. Also, on the 244, you get the two OL LED's for the L/R buss. Sweet!

[johneeeveee]

hey reel,
i sometimes use my 244 in conjunction with other recording devices, simultaneously recording to cassette and digital sources. i'm going out the line outs on the 244. what would you suggest i use as line ins from the other recorder, so i can monitor on the 244?

and chess,
so you use a rnc compressor after your vtb-1 into your 244? it sounds like you just have them in a chain going into the mic/line inserts on your 244, or do you patch the rnc into aux send/rcv?
(i'm looking at getting a rnc as well... and i love my vtb-1, and actually think i checked it out on your recommendation. money very well spent).

man, it's great to have a forum for old tascam porta's... i've looked around , and this is the only one i've come across with people who still give a crap and have taken the time to give excellent advice. i hope you don't mind all the questions, and i appreciate the help very much.
peace- jv

[A Reel Person]

You'll ALWAYS have to remember to turn down the AUX RCVs when the other recorder is put on "rec", "rec-pause", and "input" monitoring mode, otherwise you'll develop a nasty feedback loop between the aux in's, L/R buss and line outs, looping back through the input monitoring system of the external tape deck. This is very important to avoid.

When using an external 2-track recorder, that's being driven with the line outs of the 244, and also using the AUX RCVs for the 2-track tape returns from the external recorder,... accidentally switching RECORD on the external tape deck, before you've turned down AUX IN all the way down, will give you a feedback loop you will not soon forget. Feedback that may damage your hearing, your equipment, or both.

You'll notice that Tascams such as the 488 and 564 have a 2-Tr Input, that routes external tape returns directly to the MONITOR section, which gives you the basic separation you need from the main L/R buss.

In some cases, an external mixer is better for monitoring & especially if you need cue on the external recorder that's hooked to a Portastudio, BUT, if you're very, VERY careful, you may do this with the 244.

Hope that answers your questions.

================

I have a similar illustrative example, of driving a Tascam 38 with the 388's 8-buss mixer, with an M-1B as the 38's output and cue monitor:

-All 8 PGM OUTs of the 388's mixer are hooked to the 8 INPUTs of the 38 tape deck.

-A Tascam M-1B is hooked to the outputs of the 38, for monitor and cue, since the 388 doesn't provide 8-tape returns into the monitor, where it's essential to keep it isolated from the 8-buss output system.

-The 38's outputs could then be entirely repatched to the [8] LINE INs of the 388 for final remix.

=================

[chessparov]

Thanks JV, glad you like the VTB-1 like I do.
It's very quiet, with a nice coloration IMHO.

As far as using the RNC for compression, due to my "engineering
limitations" , I may try some mild compression (2:1 ratio or less)
on the vocal. Rarely try to reduce level beyond 4dB at most then.
Do use the "insert" feature on the VTB-1 for this.

It's nice to have this extra set of metering, and can be handy for
a bit of extra gain, even without actively using the compressor.

The reality, however, is that I'm at the point where there's a lot to be said to avoiding compression on the vocal, and waiting for mixdown for learning purposes. Then after you find yourself
using more predictable settings, based on the material, that can be done on initial tracking.

I respect that for recording loud instruments, it's better to do some compression up front to keep better control on levels.

Chris

[johneeeveee]

... thanks guys. i'll take your feedback and put it to use. i realize i've kinda taken this thread all over the place, so i'll get back to recording and post again in the appropriate forum if i hit a snag (which is probably inevitable : )
peace - jv

[A Reel Person]

Okay, I'm slow.