Tired ears?

[chorus]

Hi,

What do ppl mean when they say they get "tired ears" after listening to "certain" monitors for a long period of time - and apparently this does not happen on "better" monitors?

thanks
chorus.

[kylen]

In terms of mixing or mastering (DIY of course !):

I'd like to throw both the room and the monitors into the equation. In other words you may have good reference monitors yet the sound acquires 'color' or emphasis in certain freqs while traveling thru the air in the room to your ears. These additional freqs may be in what your ears hear as a harsh region, maybe 3KHz thru 4KHz, and your ear gets fatigued quicker when there is a bump in that region.

But generally I tend to listen in 20-30 minute blocks using near-fields and mid-fields when trying to really fine tune something - then take a break for 20 minutes. Your ear and brain tend to get-used to certain elements over the period of minutes. After 15 minutes or so that 1/2 octave bump you put at 12KHz tends to sound more neutral than it first did so I should bump it up some more right ? Ha Ha tricky. eh ?

Another aspect is exactly what you can imagine. If you're trying to fine tune a guitar sound that centers around 1.5K-2.5KHz or so it doesn't take your ears long to get tired and fatigued listening in that range.

So for me I try to get an affordable flat sounding reference speaker, flat reference amp, set up the room so I don't get reflection and freq imbalance issues, and take breaks.

Also by keeping some great reference material handy you can somewhat keep your ears fresh during a long rebalance session by listening to some really well balanced (eq & dynamics) material.

If someone has mixed or pre-mastered something on non-reference speakers with 'scooped-out' mids then you will be listening to a bunch of mids for a while on your flatter response reference speakers. My ears get fatigued just thinking about that !

There's more to it than that, if you look at a Fletcher-Munson curve you can see where your ears sensitivity points are at various SPL. If I listen to hi-midrange for a long time that's what kills me, especially at mixing levels of 85-90dB SPL. You don't usually want to solo a freq range out of a mix but sometimes it happens as well as the fact that the mids may just be out of balance (bad mix as they say !).

kylen

[DaveDrummer]

basically, if it sounds like crap, you may get used to that sound, and mix it to it. A good solution is just to have a CD or MP3 collection of your favorite band to play through the monitors and compare your mix to that.

[faderbug]

Originally posted by kylen
These additional freqs may be in what your ears hear as a harsh region, maybe 3KHz thru 4KHz, and your ear gets fatigued quicker when there is a bump in that region.

where did you get that information man, i'm really interested and would like to know more about which frequenties are tirening and/or annoying.

[SLuiCe]

I don't know where he got the info, but it's true. And I'd widen the spectrum a bit down to 2K, personally. It can really become more of an issue as you start layering guitars, which tend to buildup this frequency range quickly (particular parts that use all the strings ). I've been finding that a lot of people, especially ones who play in bands, have lost a lot of hearing in this range.

[faderbug]

you're right about the guitar parts, when i (occasionaly) layer guitars i 'spread out' the parts over the fretboard, playing in different positions ond/ar different octaves.

[COOLCAT]

Originally posted by kylen
In terms of mixing or mastering (DIY of course !):

I'd like to throw both the room and the monitors into the equation. In other words you may have good reference monitors yet the sound acquires 'color' or emphasis in certain freqs while traveling thru the air in the room to your ears. These additional freqs may be in what your ears hear as a harsh region, maybe 3KHz thru 4KHz, and your ear gets fatigued quicker when there is a bump in that region.

kylen

i agree. i'm a newbie on the room acoustics but it does have a huge effect on what your ears are hearing too (including ear fatigue= ear bleed= mud= crap= ass mixes= my speakers sound trebly was my issue.

put in a Pro cd...walk around your room, stand in a corner, stand in the back, stand on a stand, stand in the place where you were, walk around your room naked if you like...you'll hear your room acoustics thing.
Then go to Studio building threads and you'll realize there's as much "acoustics" engineering going on as there is engineering a microphone or engineering anything! totally amazing it is, yes

but thread asked WHAT IS EAR FATIGUE?
Listen to some of my older mixes for a few hours and you'll know what ear fatigue is.

[kylen]

where did you get that information man, i'm really interested and would like to know more about which frequenties are tirening and/or annoying.

I just watch the spectrum analyzer a lot - I have a CurveEQ and Ozone2 and an outboard S.A. that I use. If a mix has an higher than normal average in the hi-mids which for me can be anywhere from 1K or 2 K up thru 3K to 5K. I'm particularly sensitive at the 3K area - a strat in there will kill me before long !

But trying to intensely focus and concentrate on an unbalanced mix in nearfields or headphones can get pretty tiring. Sometimes both the dynamics and eq can be off a little causing a particularly dense piece of sound to clobber my ear drum from out of nowhere (fast ramp up - ramp down time) and that can tire it out too. In extremely bad mixes it can feel like you just went to 30,000 feet for a second, or up an elevator in a skyscraper.

So 4 ways for my ears to get tired:
1. Listen on nearfield/room combination that isn't tuned correctly.
2. Listen to my most sensitive range (upper mids) for too long.
3. Listen to any isolated lo mid, hi mid, high band for too long.
4. Listen to an unbalanced mix with dynamics and EQ fast ramping problems.

kylen ( ouch - I'm having an earache now ! )

[chorus]

hey kylen and everyone,

thank's very much for all the info. I think i got more than what i asked for - so it's cool.

Being quite new to mixing and wanting to understand mastering,
i've been trying to locate some websites that explain the different frequency ranges for the different instruments, like acoustic guitar, electric guitar, electric bass, etc.... is there like a "cheat sheet" website anywhere (or book recommendation) that explains these things in simple terms?

thanks again
chorus.

[kylen]

There's a bunch of freq charts on the net, I used the words "1/3 octave frequency chart" in google and got this one:

http://www.bcpl.net/~musicman/freqchrt.htm

and "piano frequencies" to get this one:
http://www.vibrationdata.com/piano.htm

I've got them hanging on my wall - I'd like to see some other popular ones, maybe someone will walk in here and post a few !

kylen

[rushfan33]

It's like any other part of your body! Your ears can stop functioning to the fullest potential just like a pitcher's arm may give out after hours of pitching. After listening to music for so long in one setting, your ears can get too exhausted to hear properly. If you're on poor quality speakers, your ears will struggle more to hear the detail in frequencies. Since you're actually "looking" for detail with your ears, they work a little harder and eventually tire out. That's my thought on the subject.
Anyone disagree?
RF

[EddieRay]

How can one test the frequency range of one's ears? A man's gotta know his limitations! If my ears are no good above, say, 14kHz I could be making some bad EQ decisions and not realize it. Is there any software available to help test or train the ears?

[kylen]

Since you're actually "looking" for detail with your ears, they work a little harder and eventually tire out. That's my thought on the subject.

That's what I think too rushfan33 - that's why I'm redoing my room right now. I think a poor quality listening environment includes the speaker/room combination.

I'm using a combination of Ethan Winer room treatments:
http://www.ethanwiner.com/articles.html

...and my new RTA room analysis/mastering DEQ I just got last night:
http://www.musik-service.de/ProduX/P...DEQ2496_EN.htm

I might even throw in the monitoring amplifier in there too but I'm going to tune up what I have better first. I'm using Alesis M1 Powered near-fields so they'll do the job till the next upgrade. It's just like you said I have to listen longer and harder so I get tired ears !

A room tune up can help immensely !

kylen

[MikeA]

Ear fatigue is the reason that you want to:

A - Don't listen at too loud a level for too long

B - Don't mix/master at the same level all the time

The room's acoustics DO play a huge part in this as has been correctly stated, but you can minimize the interaction with the room by turning it down!

If you find that you've been listening for awhile and all of the sudden you get the feeling that things don't sound right; like if someone talks to you and their voice sounds smaller or far away, you're fatigued. Take a break. If you've been listening at the same level for a period of time it may not be noticeable because you're concentrating on one specific area (like blending screaming guitars), but if you move on to something else it can suddenly not sound right. Change the volume or take a break. Of course, if the room sounds bad, there's not much that can be done with that if you have to have it loud.