Confused, in need of help?

[Benreturns]

A very basic question I know...

I use portastudio's, all in one multitracks.

Why do some 'home recordists' use a mixing desk? Even if its just them by themselves? Whats the point of recording one track at a time through the desk?? And, where does the recording actually end up?? Where is it stored??
AND, how do they mix the overall song after they've recorded the 16 tracks or whatever? Do they use the mixeing desk?? Does every channel have to be connected? Im under the impression that mixing desks cant store induvidual tracks... othawise they'd be multitradck recorders.

Can anyone clear this up?? As you can proboly tell im a newbie

[TexRoadkill]

The mixer is the same as the one on your portastudio but of higher quality and with more options. Each channel on the recorder is hooked up to a channel on the mixer and 2track recorder is hooked up to the main outs to record the final mixdown.

If you want to use a lot of external hardware effects than a mixer is the easiest way to utilize them.

[BillyFurnett]

Hey Ben,

(Maybe you already know this stuff.. If so please disregard)


See, there are Channels AND there are Tracks..

A Channel is a path the sound/signal takes.

A Track is where the sound/signal is stored for playback.


A "*Mixer" is a unit able to accept several signals from such things as Mic's, Guitars and Keyboards and give them each it's own path.

While each signal is going down its path you can adjust the Volume, EQ, Pan (Left or Right posistion) of each signal...

So basically a 16 CHANNEL mixer has the abilty to accept 16 seperate signals OR give 16 instruments their own paths (Same thing.)

Mixers DO NOT store the sounds, Mixers (Basically) ROUTE the sounds down paths so that you can adjust and blend them together (Mix them), before sending them to the recorder.

If you were using a Mixer with a Portastudio all of the signals would go into the mixer first, get blended, then sent out to the Portastudio to be recorded.

NOTE: There are different types of mixers and ways mixers are used... Some mixers do many other "Side features" that are also useful and making the mixer "Flexible" (See more towards the bottom.)

Here are SOME examples of how/why a mixer might be used with a Portastudio while recording alone OR in a whole band recording situation:

ALONE: You want to have 2 (Or more) Mics picking up the sound of your guitar amp, then blend (Mix) and send them out to one Portastudio track.

BAND: You find yourself recording an orchestra which takes several mics... what do you do? You plug all of the mics into a mixer, where you can adjust them a little, then once blended the sounds go from the mixer out to your Portastudio which records them.

ALONE: Using a keyboard (Or Keyboards).


BAND OR ALONE: You are a drummer and each drum has a mic on it, but you just want 1 drum track on your Portastudio, so you run all the mics through the mixer and maybe adjust some to sound as if they are coming from the left or some from the right (This is PAN) AND/OR if like the bass drum is too loud, you can just turn that mics CHANNEL down (Or up) using the sliding volume lever called a FADER.

BAND: Everyone in the band is all set up and has their sound going through the mixer, but in walks three (Or more!) HOT back up singers that will sound sooooo cool going "Ooo" and "Ahh" in a song... What do you do? First you tell the guitar player his car is getting towed so he runs out the door, then YOU get their phone numbers... After that you plug in three (Or more) mics (One for each of them) into three (or more.. as many as you need) empty mixer channels and adjust the volume so it sounds good blended with the rest of the band.

It's always good to have more CHANNELS on a mixer than Tracks on the recorder AND/OR More Channels than instuments.

A mixer may have several alternative paths in and out for different reasons (For different tasks you might encounter.)

MOST Mixers have a stereo Left and Right out, but in some (if not all cases) you wouldn't connect the mixer to a multitrack machine like that (unless you wanted to)...

(This is PART of what confused the heck out of me for a long time!)
Usually each Track will be given it's own Channel..
That is to say the signal (Guitar, Mic, Keyboard ect.) goes
down the path of mixers Channel #1 and out of the mixer to Track #1 of a Multitrack machine.
This is done when a mixer has a "Direct Out" for each channel... So the sound goes into channel 1 and down the path (Where you adjust it), then it goes DIRECTLY OUT of the mixer into Track 1 of a multitrack machine to be recorded... Channel #2 goes to Track #2, Channel #3 goes to Track #3 and so on.

You with me so far???

OK..

(Now this was where I was sooooooo lost, so since you are new lets make sure you aren't lost too!)

Now lets use the first example I gave above about you wanting to have two mics on your guitar amp, BUT you want the two blended and sent to just one Track on your Portastudio Ok?
Now if channel #1 goes directly out to Track #1, then how do you use two mics???
Ok, mixers have a feature called a BUSS.
(This term screwed with my head till someone here set me straight.)

The mixer MIGHT be a 16 Channel- 4 Buss configuration.
(The amount of Channels and number of Busses varys from mixer to mixer depending on what you buy.)

SO...
If we think of a single mixer Channel as a house, we could say the Input (Where you'd plug a mic into) is the front door and the Direct Out is the back door (Where the signal leaves and goes to a single Track on the multitrack machine.)

With that in mind, the Buss can be thought of as windows!

So if the front door already has a signal walking through it, but you need a second signal coming into the house at the same time (Because remember you want to have two mics on your guitar amp?) then you just press a button and it opens a window (The Buss) and lets the second signal come in that way... Then they both go out the back door together and get recorded.... If you need 3 mics you use the front door (Channel Input) and open two windows (Engage two Busses) and all three will go out the back door together and get recorded.

Makes sense? (If not, do yourself a HUGE favor and find out what I mean because although basic, it opens up the world as far as mixers go.)

OK, so IF you understand that, then lets think about a recorder that ISN'T a Portastudio (BTW I love my Porta Two!)

Lets say it's an 8 track recorder...
(I'll keep this short)

You would send all of your instruments and mics signals to the recorder (One at a time if you want)... FOR EXAMPLE: The Guitars are on Track 1 and 2, The bass is on 3, drums are on 4 and 5, vocals are on 6 and 7 and the keyboard is on 8..., THEN you would hook up it up (Sometimes just flip a switch) so that all of the recorded signals come back into the mixer when you hit
'Play' on the multitrack recorder!!

Why on earth do want them back from the recorder after you spent so much time getting them onto it??!!!

Well it's what is called "Mixdown"...

So when you hit 'Play' on the multitrack machine each recorded signal comes back into the mixer (Down it's own path where you can once again adjust it and put EQ on each seperate track and adjust it from left or right ect ect), THEN once all of the 8 tracks are Blended (Mixed), they NOW ALL go out of the mixer via a Left and a Right Stereo output (Just like on your Portastudio) to a Cassette deck or a CD burner or a Compter or Mini Disk or to a Two track deck and basically its finished.
(OR this is where the "Mastering" process takes place.)

Hope this helps.




*You might see a "Mixer" refered to by a few different names such as "Mixing Board" Mixing Console" "Mixing Desk" "Board" "Console" "Desk".
They are the same.

[SPINSTERWUN]

Very, very good post, BillyFurnett.......

It was very thoughtful of you to take the time to make sure one of our newer members fully understand the mixing borad process.

spin

PS: I think that I will copy your response and post it into the forum I moderatate (Hip-Hop Forum).

[BillyFurnett]

Hey Spin Thanks man.

I went YEARS without knowing how a mixer worked and a really patient member here (Ghost Of FM) really took the time to get it into my head, so now if I can at least TRY to give that knowlege back to some degree, then it's a small effort to make compared to what I've learned here you know?

The Buss concept made me dizzy and I THINK it might be confusing for alot of folks... If I had only had this site years ago...Wow!


Be Cool
-Billy-

[The Ghost of FM]

Thank you, Grass-hopper

When you can snatch this rock from my hand, you will be a man.

Cheers, Man.

[BillyFurnett]

BTW- I've been looking for a second opinion on Ghost's suggestion that I dress up like David Carradine from televison's "Kung Fu" everytime I record... I GUESS it HAS helped, but I don't know...



Oh Well.. Don't want to mess up a good thing you know?
-GRASSHOPPER-

[SPINSTERWUN]

Originally posted by The Ghost of FM
......When you can snatch this rock from my hand, you will be a man.....

[PinkFloyd]

Great Post, BillyFurnett !

Thanks!

[BillyFurnett]

Welcome to the BBS PinkFloyd.

Thanks for the thanks on the post... Beauty of it is that everytime someone gathers some info they can help the next person in behind them you know?

Happy Recording
-Billy-

[Dethska]

BAND OR ALONE: You are a drummer and each drum has a mic on it, but you just want 1 DRUM TRACK on your Portastudio, so you run all the mics through the mixer and maybe adjust some to sound as if they are coming from the left or some from the right (This is PAN) AND/OR if like the bass drum is too loud, you can just turn that mics CHANNEL down (Or up) using the sliding volume lever called a FADER.

Sorry to pick. Overall a wonderful post. I just wanted to clarify this because it really confused me for awhile. You can't have stereo (something left/something right) with one track. You need to be able to pan something left and something right during mixdown. Thus, you need at least two tracks.

[BillyFurnett]

Oh the sting of guilt in giving misinformation!

LOL- I knew THAT was gonna come back and get me and I'm glad you caught it Dethska.. (I was more concerned with putting something about Panning in than I was with thinking about what I was saying... BUSTED!)

GOOD CALL

-Billy-

[Richard Monroe]

Great post, Billy!-Richie

[Dethska]

No problem Billy. Like I said, the only reason I caught it was that I spent a good amount of time thinking that I could record stereo onto one track. I had to sit down and really think about it, before I realized that didn't make any sense.

I really like the doors, windows buss analogy. It made me realize I can do the same thing with my board. I just never utilized that function. I plan on experimenting with this weekend. Props to you.

[Benreturns]

That was an outstanding post, i loved the house analogy!

Ive always been confused you see, as to why one man songwriters/producers would need a mixing desk seeing as it couldnt store information and its very hard to play drums guitar at the same time!

So instead of the multitrack thing i have going at the moment, if i ever wanted to upgrade i could go -

Mics/keyboard ----> 16 track recorder
http://www.tascam.com/product_info.p...=hd_multitrack

Then from that recorder to this:
http://www.studiospares.com/productd...OGUE&p=1&gid=4

Then from that to this....
http://www.studiospares.com/productd...DERS&p=1&gid=4


If you get me... how can i get every track of that 24 track recorder to goto a channel on a mixing desk? Surely there aren't enough outputs on the recorder? Or have i got the type of recorder wrong? Whats a better example?
Also, i take it add outboard effects etc... at the mixing stage when mixing down onto a CD?

If you can suffer my questions you'l do a newbie a great favour! And thanks again for that 1st class reply earlier - and all of you!

[SPINSTERWUN]

Here is a link to the back panel of that TASCAM MX2424......

http://www.tascam.com/products/MX-24..._Panel_1_0.pdf

[SPINSTERWUN]

Originally posted by Benreturns
.......Surely there aren't enough outputs on the recorder?........

Yes. There are enough inputs and outputs (24INS/OUTS).

However, I think that you might want to go with a different setup.

What is your budget???

spin

[Benreturns]

Well at the moment, its just an enquiry to view my options. My budget would be a couple of thousand say. I would be putting it all together very slowly however, not splashing on it all at once.

I dont want to go by way of PC/Mac i like to have the hard equipment at my fingertips and not be staring too much at a screen all day. I like the idea of a 24 track unit (not portastudio) being fed into a large mixer. I would like to produce 24-bit sounds.

What are my options?

AS a side note, can anyone tell me how proffessional studios work? I often see huge mixing desks in them, but not always computers....

[BillyFurnett]

(Thanks for jumping in Spinster... I saw Ben's post, but it was like 6:30 A.M. and I was just about crossed eyed from being up all night, so I didn't respond.)

Ok Ben,

As Spinster has pointed out, IT does appear that the Tascam 2424 has 24 INPUTS AND 24 OUTPUTS, so with a 24 channel Board (That usually) with Direct Outs it would go as explained before... Mixer Channel #1 to Recorder Track#1, Mixer Channel #2 to Recorder Track #2 and so on.

There would be a few different ways the signal might be sent back from the Recorder to the Mixer for Monitoring and Mixdown, but those routes would be dependant upon the Mixers features.

(It's important that I tell you I have no background in digital gear at all and in fact not much background in analog gear either-LOL, but more importantly is that I have no experience with the gear you posted links to...., SO (Of course) you'll want to discuss ideas about what you'd eventually like to record with someone that actually HAS those pieces of gear OR experience with gear very much like it. Before you invest any money IMO it's best to learn as much as possible about all types of gear and it's uses as well as how it gets hooked up and why... This will help you look for the features you'll need to record as you intend to.

A good way to do more research is to SEE (Detailed Pics)and read about gear uses and features here, there and everywhere...
(And I think you're doing a great job so far... Heck, if you understand all that I've explained, then you know as much as I do (I'm an eternal newbie in my opinion.)...., so here are some links to further help you.

This first one has manuals you can download which are actually kind of "Easy" AND "Fun" to read through with pics that will help you SEE connections and routes.

http://mackie.com/products/1642vlzpro/index.html


This one has a 'Learning Section' with diagrams and explainations that might help you out as well.

http://mackie.com/products/1642vlzpro/index.html


(If you don't already know...)
Make an attempt to understand how an INSERT works...
It ISN'T that hard to understand, but it seems to often be misunderstood. (Compressors are another mystery as well, but all in good time.)

ALSO
Begin to make sense out of the various types of jacks and plugs used on Mixers and Gear.

While you're researching that kind of stuff it MIGHT also be cool to write a post here where YOU TELL US how a mixer works...
(I did the same thing in various other posts and it helped ALOT because it simply forced me to put out in the open what I DIDN'T understand.) Mixers and the whole connection scheme seem IMO to depend on each other... That is to say when you understand one part (Or don't) then it's easier and somewhat intuitive to understand the next step in the connections, features and use.
It's kind of like stepping stones across a stream.. When you can tell us which stones you see (Features and use you understand), then you are also telling which you don't see (Or understand) and everyone can fill in your next step across the stream AND/OR
you will just find yourself saying "Oh Wait!, If I'm gonna step from here to over there, then it's obvious that THIS MUST BE the next missing stone!" And you will laugh as a bigger picture of the whole process begins to come into focus.


Keep up the good work man.

[Benreturns]

Billy, if you had been my teacher at school I can garuentee I wouldn't have been a dropout!

At the moment im downloading all pictures of front and rear panels of various recorder/mixing pictures i can find and comparing them. I take it the signal is recorded pretty dry into the recorder, so what you have is a basic track. Then when all your tracks are recorded simply, you send them through into the mixer where the fun of effects/ techniques begins, and finally when your done out into a cd burner/cassette deck.

I take it a mixer is a corridor, with an entrance and end. As the sound travels downt this tunnel it is subjected to various things such as adding reverb/delay/FX/volume changes etc..(not compression im led to understand - this is recorded onto each track unless you want to compress the whole mix at mixdown) and the signal emerges at the end ready to process to CD/tape. This happens with every track you record until they are all blended together as a whole 'product'. You plug monitors into the outputs of the MIXER to see how its all doing. You plug external mastering processors into line-out jacks when you want to make a hard copy.

Is there no way to control volume (mix) on the Tascam MX-24? You just record it all in flat? Looking at the front pannel .pdf I cant see a way to control the volume of each induvidual track.

[Benreturns]

What is a DAT machine?

[BillyFurnett]

Ok Ben ( It seems in recording that you are forever the teacher AND the student...,so you can't drop out on yourself.)


You are PRETTY close (And in part are very much right!)
SOME mixers have BUILT IN EFFECTS (Such as reverb and who knows what else?) So in SOME cases you COULD 'PROCESS' the signal on it's way down it's path or hall or tunnel (Sort of) yes, BUT USUALLY (NOT ALWAYS) what would happen is that you would employ 'OUTBOARD GEAR' which means other units (Outside of the mixer) that do various tasks to the signals (Usually each unit does one thing really well, like a good reverb unit will pretty much just do no nonsense kick ass reverb. SOME very good units do a few things.)

Ok (Remember I mentioned mixers doing other "Side features?"), well the way effects USUALLY fit into the picture is by means of one of these Side Features called "THE EFFECTS SEND & RETURN" This is pretty simple really... See, when the signal comes into the mixer (Like the frontdoor) it can sort of be walking towards the "Back Door" (The Direct Out) , BUT you can kind of tell it to step out of a "SIDE DOOR" The side door is another way Out of the mixer (House) AND a way back In.
So you can tell the signal to go out the side door BEFORE it gets to the back door (Direct Out).
So what happens to the signal when it goes out the side door?
The side door is called the "EFFECTS SEND" AND the "EFFECTS RETURN." There are USUALLY two Jacks (Sometimes more) on a Mixer that we can think of the sidedoor
The Effects Send Jack and the Effects Return Jack.

Now for a little recap.. The signal has come into the Mixer (House) through the Input (Frontdoor) and is headed for the DIRECT OUT (BACKDOOR) but you tell it to hold off of going out the backdoor and instead send it out the Effects Send (side door).
What happens is you hook up a cable (Or cables) to the Effects Send so the signal travels out of the Mixer, down the cable and into A EFFECTS UNIT ( A PIECE OF OUTBOARD GEAR: A seperate box that effects the signals sound.. it could be a Reverb unit the siganal passes through making it sound "Echoy" )

Now you decide "Enough of this effecting, you get in here and get out that back door and damnit look at you...You're all Echoy and sounding like a huge canyon!"
Well the signal needs a way to Return from the effects unit and get back into the Mixer (House) through the side door it went out of...Now how is that gonna happen??

Well ANOTHER CABLE hooks up that the signal travels down back into the Mixer FROM THE EFFECTS UNIT.
What do you suppose the Jack that that cable hooks up to is called??? Lets see, it's has to do with Effects AND it IS Returning into the sidedoor back into the mixer.... AH HA! It must be the EFFECTS RETURN!!!!!
YES! The side door is no damn side door! It's simply TWO JACKS (One leading out of the mixer called) EFFECTS SEND (And one leading back into the mixer called) EFFECTS RETURN!!

So can see that the signal has gone out the Effects Send (Because you are sending it to the seperate unit (For example a Reverb unit) and then the signal is Returning to the Mixer into the Effects Return?
This is the Send and Return (SOMETIMES the Return is called "Recieve".. You may also see the term "Effects Loop" which is another way to call the going out and coming back in of the signal through the Send and Return.

(Now dig this!... Ok, signals are USUALLY recorded to the multitrack "DRY" (With no effects) (An exception MIGHT BE Compression.... SOMETIMES you send the signal to a compressor and then to the recorder.) The reason you'd USUALLY want the signals "Dry" is that you don't want to be stuck with an effected sound on the recording. (Because what if it sounded cool at first, but then you realize you played a master piece guitar solo, but now it sounds it like junk because of all the effects on it? AND they are recorded! So you'll have to do it over to get rid of them!... Screw that!) SO, the way around that nightmare is to use the Effects send and Return at mixdown!!
So when all the recorded sounds are coming back into the mixer you can THEN tell one to go out the side door, tehn when it returns it goes (with all the other signals) to the CD recorder or cassette deck (or whatever) and is recorded there with the effect on it.

SO it looks like you have everything right in your post BUT
I don't understand what you mean by the Mastering Effects Processors (Unless you mean Effects processors used at mixdown like I just described OR there are some digital mastering processors I'm unaware of.)

When I mentioned Mastering I meant it as in terms of how (SOMETIMES) people mix everything to a STEREO TWO TRACK and THEN USUALLY (OR SOMETIMES) another guy sends the Left singal and the right signal through a mixer and it goes through various tasks of FINAL EQ and COMPRESSING AND LEVEL SETTING... THEN it goes to a recorder that makes the CD you buy at the store.

(Mastering really isn't something to even worry about yet at all)

As far as how that 2424 works...I have no idea. (Sorry)

Do searches on Effects units and tell me a few kinds AND do a search on this bbs about INSERTS and what they do for next time.


Be cool

[Benreturns]

Well i have an effects unti hooked up to my Tascam 488mkII at the moment. Ive managed to hook it up as a send return effect, by trial and error trying all the holes out and without understanding the principals to well. It has reverb and delay on it as well as a mastering feature to add punch and stuff to mixes. I quite enjoy trying its things out (ive had it 3 weeks).

I also have a compressor/limiter/gate which really baffles me. I manage to get the sounds I want,b ut only after playing about aimlessly with it. I use it to make my bass pump. Its connected via an insert point and i believe this treats the signal before the EQ stage on my portastudio??its connected using about 4 jack adapters as i do not have the proper cable. What is this cable i need?? has it got a special name? At the moment its mono and stereo OUT of the compressor (using a 1/8" 2 into one jack splitter) and a mono jack IN to the comrpessor. These are both connected into insert point one on my tascam via another jack splitter (1/4") could i save on adapters and cables and buy a specialist lead for this??

Thanks again for the help billy!

[BillyFurnett]

Ok Awesome man! You already know what the insert is all about.
I don't really understand all your connections (I'm tired is why) and I don't know the units you are using, but usually (Not always) a 1/4 inch TSR (Tip Ring Sleeve) cable is used... It looks like a 1/4 stereo plug on one end that Y's to two mono 1/4 inch plugs like at this link about making them:

http://www.colomar.com/Shavano/ringtip.html


At the moment I have no simple ways to describe how it works other than it acts as a send and recieve, but sends the whole of the channels signal as opposed to only a percentage of it like the Effects Send does.


Dude you have learned as much as I know and as much as I can tell you about... Happy recording Ben.


-Billy-

[Mark7]

Originally posted by Benreturns
I also have a compressor/limiter/gate which really baffles me. I manage to get the sounds I want,b ut only after playing about aimlessly with it. I use it to make my bass pump. Its connected via an insert point and i believe this treats the signal before the EQ stage on my portastudio??its connected using about 4 jack adapters as i do not have the proper cable. What is this cable i need?? has it got a special name? At the moment its mono and stereo OUT of the compressor (using a 1/8" 2 into one jack splitter) and a mono jack IN to the comrpessor. These are both connected into insert point one on my tascam via another jack splitter (1/4") could i save on adapters and cables and buy a specialist lead for this??

If you want to compress after Eqing then the best way is to bring the signal back into one (or two if you're compressing a stereo track) input(s). How you get the signal from the 488 to the compressor, I have no idea. That's ARP's territory.

By the way. The cable you need is a Y Cord. I have one I'd be willing to let you have.