Hail Music Theory!!!

[Uncle Roel]

Music theory is a bitch.... to start out with. You seem to loose your creativity, and you can't make up anything decent with what you have learned.

Then, after a while, the music theory gets you further than what you have learned in a non-formal way, and you learn some things that DO sound, but stuff you'd never come up with on your own. It fills in the small holes in your cultural background. By this time, you're about at the level that you're free again to write with your ear. This is after a while however; it really takes an effort to get there. You miss something though, some sounds that you cannot find in your little book.

And now I just got introduced into modal harmony. This is WILD. A whole new world of sounds has just opened and this course is just starting out! Damn.......

[Cyrokk]

Modal theory kicks ass. I love it, as do many guitarists.

Dorian is my favorite. I find the major sixth added to a minor oriented scale to be most pleasing to the ear.

I also dig Locrian too.

Cy

[Benreturns]

I refused flatly to learn any theory saying it would stump my creative growth or something. I didnt basically want to end up like up like Elton John. More of a John Lennon lol

But... as time went on i realised i did have a thirst to learn new things about music and also relaised that just by reading all about my favourite music for pleasure purposes.... wow, I'd picked up alot of theory on the way without knowing it and I find that having a set of musical tricks up your sleeve can never be anything but usefull.
So now its... ooh i could stick a little cadence in there... whereas before the idea would never have occured to me and it wouldnt have sounded so good.

If you are genrally interested in music as a whole, you can't help but learn about it.

[Fat_Satchel]

Originally posted by Cyrokk
I also dig Locrian too.

Maaahhhnn!! I caught these guys' act at the Starry Nights in Portland once! Maaahhhhnnn...they ROCKED!! When they comin round again anyway??

Never heard of those Dorian dudes though...they still touring?

[thevirus5085]

Music theory is a bitch... High school music theory A.P. is funnnn. I find it does help me out a lot... and I have bragging rights because everyone else in my class is a senior where as i am a sophmore.
but anyway...
Music theory is a bitch.

-conor-

[tanlith]

OK... but consider this...


I learned to play totally by ear and carried on that way for years... only to run into a creative roadblock because I didn't really understand music as much as someone who had studied it would.

So I went back to study theory... if you think it's a bitch now, try it when you already know how to play well... it's about as much fun as masterbating with a cheese grater....

Anyway... I do wish I had learned it the right way from the start...

- Tanlith -

[Lt. Bob]

I majored in composition so I understand theory well but I virtually never use it per se.

In fact, if you were to walk up to me on a gig and ask what key I was just in I would have to take a second to think about it before I would know. And I play a lot in a lot of different sort of gigs including recording sessions but an actual need for theory very rarely comes up.
IMO, theory is major useful for learning but to play at a high level you have to get past it to where you play intuitively rather than clinically.

[Uncle Roel]

Actually, I knew how to sightread, and learn to play guitar by ear from my 15 to my 20th. One year of music theory back then, when I took up classical guitar... That caused a big block.

Didn't have any further education, till about 3 years later, started studying again. Hardcore this time. And I've been on it for 4 years now. I'll get my (classical) harmony master this year.

And still, I'm really good in harmony, I've seen all the theory there is in classical harmony. That modal harmony (part of my jazz harmony courses which are optional) has opened a complete new world for me. All these new sounds. Man. Big wow.

[thevirus5085]

Originally posted by tanlith
OK... but consider this...


I learned to play totally by ear and carried on that way for years... only to run into a creative roadblock because I didn't really understand music as much as someone who had studied it would.

So I went back to study theory... if you think it's a bitch now, try it when you already know how to play well... it's about as much fun as masterbating with a cheese grater....

Anyway... I do wish I had learned it the right way from the start...

- Tanlith -

I am kinda in that block right now. I have never had lessons for guitar. For the past three or four years i've taught myself( not very well might i add) But this music theory class is starting to help a lot.
And music theory is kinda boring this year bacause we are just doing four part writing and it's not something i really wanna be doing . ya' know.

[tanlith]

Originally posted by thevirus5085
I am kinda in that block right now. I have never had lessons for guitar. For the past three or four years i've taught myself( not very well might i add) But this music theory class is starting to help a lot.
And music theory is kinda boring this year bacause we are just doing four part writing and it's not something i really wanna be doing . ya' know.

Yep... I know exactly what ya mean... sometimes that whole "walk before you run" cliche can be a pain in the rear... no matter how accurate it is

- Tanlith -

[Uncle Roel]

I've been doing 4part writing for over 4 years now. In the beginning it's a bitch. But once you get to altered chords and all the non chord tones you can use it's really interesting. I'm writing up to 10 hours a week now in 4 part harmony, and my understanding and feel of chords in general is evolving preatty good.

But I understand that not everone can put that much time in it. It's my main subject at school.

[thevirus5085]

Originally posted by Uncle Roel
I've been doing 4part writing for over 4 years now. In the beginning it's a bitch. But once you get to altered chords and all the non chord tones you can use it's really interesting. I'm writing up to 10 hours a week now in 4 part harmony, and my understanding and feel of chords in general is evolving preatty good.

But I understand that not everone can put that much time in it. It's my main subject at school.

Yah i just think this beginning stuff is kinda boring. WE CAN ONLY USE ROOT CHORDS!!!! Although now that you say it, I realize it does help me understand chords a lot.

[mikeh]

I'm self taught on a few instruments and while I have decent chops my knowledge of theory is not as strong as I would like.

I've forced myself to learn more theory and to do scales (rather than jam on my favorite blues progressions - or whatever), which has helped.

However, learning songs has done more to teach me theory than anything else. When you learn enough songs you start to understand what chords work and why, you gain a better concept of how melody lines can flow from chord to chord and how harmony evolves.

I try to find new songs with chord progressions that I don't normally think to use, and then spend a fair amount of time trying to play a melodic "solo" (not always a single note line) through the changes - in essence, playing scales - which helps me to understand how to get from chord to chord.

I think Lt. Bob is right, you need to play enough (with enough people in enough styles) that you don't have to think about it too much.

We all use theory, however we may not all be able to articulate as effectively (I know a minor 6th works) but I can't write a thesis on it.

[Uncle Roel]

Mikeh, what you are doing is rewriting theory. You don't need to. You can give me about any song, and I'll explain you what's happening in it. THAT's music theory. If you study songs, and get the theory out, you'll get there, but reeeeaaaaally slowly. If you study theory, and use the songs as examples, you'll learn everything in an organized way, from the start. You'll get a full course. In the end, you'll study 20 songs and know all of them, while when studying songs, you'll have to study 1000's of songs to have gotten everything in it.

That's just what theory is about. See what happens in most songs, get the cliché's out, and explain them. Not studying one cliche with whole choruses of basics around them. Why do you think music students have to study theory and not study a songbook by head? Going your way, you're rewriting theorybooks. There's no use in that if you can just learn them, and see their uses in playing the songs while knowing what is happening.

And, you'll be amazed how much LtBob knows about theory. Learn the changes, then forget about them. Learn the rules, then break them. It's all the same. I wanna see you play/analyse a complex modal song without knowing what is happening.

Here's a chord progression:
F#-7/C# | G#-7/C# | Amaj7/C# | C# |
F#-7 | G#-7/F# | B7sus4 |
G#-/C# | Amaj7/C# | G#-7/C# | Amaj7/C# |
F#- | B7sus4 | F#-7 | Emaj7 E7 | Eb7 |
C-7 | Ab-7 | Amaj7#11 | Emaj7 | Amaj7#11 | Emaj7

I'll give you a hint: the 'key' is in F#. Try to find your way in this without a theory course to fall back on. Or try writing something without a theory course to fall back on.

I'm not saying that it's impossible, but I know that I'll have less trouble playing on this in a few years then you will without theory...

[mikeh]

Uncle Roel,

Your points are all valid - perhaps I did not present my case well. I was in no way trying to imply that theory is not important, or that I am not interested in theory.

What I was trying to say, was that basic concepts of theory (melody/harmony/rhythem) are all around us, in the music we listen to and the songs we play. If someone has a basic understanding of theory they can then learn songs (or perhaps the better term would be "study songs) to see how the concepts of theory apply. Most musicians can pick up that basic knowledge by playing, learning songs and by some studies (formal or informal).

Certainly, the level of study you are at, far surpasses anything I, or likely most musicians would ever strive for. While your dedication and level of knowledge are impressive (I wish I would have had the time and commitment to achieve such knowledge) there are many (probably most) musicians that have reached various levels of personal satisfaction and commercial success with significantly less knowledge of theory than you may have.

I have and will continue to learn theory (although likely never at the level a person who commits to significant formal study (such as you) and I hope that it will help me to continue to improve as a musicain and a writer - even though I've been a musican for almost 40 years, I continue to discover how little I know.

However, that all being said, I do tend to agree with something Lt. Bob indicated - in my experiance, in practical application most advance theory is not used in performance nor in most "pop" songwriting (at least not in the various musical environmentals I've been involved in at both professional and semi-professional levels for many, many years)

That in no way implies that I don't have the highest respect (and awe) for people who have significant knowledge of theory. I have no doubt that you could work your way through the F# progression much faster, and likely with more creative choice of melodic lines than I could, but I rarely see that complex of a chord pattern come up in the gigs that I do.

[Lt. Bob]

Originally posted by mikeh
I rarely see that complex of a chord pattern come up in the gigs that I do.

The blues anyone?

[Uncle Roel]

Yeah... You're right I guess... I'm into this weird music. hehe. It depends on what you're into ofcourse. But there's alot of simple dorian music, that you can easily understand. Pink Floyd did a few modal tunes, Impressions and So What are fairly easy jazzstandards...

HERE I found some really interesting lessons on modal music. Check it out. It might give you some really nice chords to put in a normal song (modal interchange...)

[Uncle Roel]

Originally posted by Lt. Bob
The blues anyone?

One of the teachers at school told my friend the saxplayer that he shouldn't bother about blues yet. Blues is something to play when you're like 50 or something. Old and expirienced.



He really meant that to play jazz-blues, the bebop kind I guess, you better be good... I ain't playing no Charlie Parker blues...

[Lt. Bob]

Originally posted by Uncle Roel
One of the teachers at school told my friend the saxplayer that he shouldn't bother about blues yet. Blues is something to play when you're like 50 or something. Old and expirienced.

Ya' know......when you listen to the blues.......it sounds so simple. I mean, B.B.King will play 2 notes and it's so soulful. But when you do it......it just sounds like two notes....ho hum.
That's where the experience and the knowledge of your impending death come into play and it's why young players don't get the same feel as old guys. A good example is Stevie Ray.....awesome chops for sure........but not nearly as soulful as B.B.. Had he lived .....he surely would have moved to a more minimilist style whith a lot less notes but more pure emotion.
Now lets not turn this into a "Oh yeah, SRV was god" thread.
I'm simply using him as an example.

But my man Roel has a point. Theory is one of the tools you need to really progress. And then you get to where you don't think about it. Kinda like when you talk you don't think about grammer.....you just talk. But you did need to learn the rules first.

I don't think that every style of music requires the same depth of theory knowledge and sometimes it can be a detriment.
For example.....put a jazz git player in a honky tonk band and they'll hate him. I've seen it many times. They'll say it's too jazzy.
And I can't count the number of symphony players I've heard that couldn't play their way out of a bag in a band setting even though they were 1st chair at the symphony.

[Uncle Roel]

Originally posted by Lt. Bob
But my man Roel has a point.

Thank you. That's all I wanted to hear here really.

God I'm SO smart...

[mikeh]

Roel,

So What & Impression are perfect samples. I work in a "jazz rock" group - actually it was a "classic rock" group that started to add jazz materials for our own sanity (how many times can one play Brown Eyed Girl before dementia hits???)

So What and Impressions were two very obvious jazz songs that were relatively easy to learn and were not sooo "outside" that the normal "rock crowd" in the clubs we played could actual like them. While advance knowledge of modes, etc. certain can help create better solo's, these songs don't "require" that level of knowledge.

Now we did try to learn Birds Of Fire by Mahavisnu, it took forever to learn and people hated it. We spent weeks learning it and maybe played it twice.

I know this thread is about songwriting, but the whole issue of complex theory & chord patterns got me off on something else.