SIR and Sonar problem

[Lostinspice]

I'm trying to get the SIR convolution plugin to work in Sonar. I'm using DirectiXer as the VST wrapper (by the way, great product and maker answers questions cheerfully). Here's what I do: I load a .wav impulse into SIR and then insert it into an aux buss. However, when I play the track, the audio engine shuts down. I thought it might be a de-normal problem, but after inserting a normalizer plug-in in front of it, same problem. I tried raising the latency slider, same problem.

I'm running a P4 2.4c, 1gb ram, P4P800 mobo, WD 7200 rpm HDs.

Anybody using SIR with Sonar? What am I doing wrong? Any help would be appreciated. I want to see if convolution lives up to the hype!

[Zikes]

Don't you have to insert the effect into Sonar first before you load the impulse? That's the way I used it anyway. I had no problem with it loading on an Athlon XP1700 system with 2.0. The problem I had was VERY poor latency. There is supposed to be work around for this (delaying other tracks) but I coudn't figure it out. Sounds awesome though! I haven't tried it with 3.0 yet and am anxious to see how it works with my new faster system. Waiting for the new sound card to get here. I'll report back.

[Lostinspice]

Sorry for the odd choice of words. I did insert SIR in the aux buss before loading the impulse.

I also went to the DirectiXer site, and they suggested moving the latency slider WAY up for SIR. Maybe I didn't slide far enough! I'm not in front of my daw, but I'll try later on and see. If this works, I'll be a happy camper.

[Zikes]

I'm wishing the best for you but when I mentioned latency, what happens is the entire affected track is delayed, not just the effect. I'm hoping the next version of SIR addresses this. If anyone knows a workaround, I would be most greatful as impulse verbs are really cool! I did E-Mail tech support (SIR creator) and he gave me some information on calculating latency numbers, compensating and such but it was way over my head. I suppose you could slide the track over and match it with the others, but I think that would be kind of a trial and error thing.

[kgirl72]

Hey guys.

I tried SIR a bit recently, and it's a cool concept. I used it in Sonar with no problem with dropouts or error messages at all.

The aux buss caused the latency for me really badly. I've read that it's supposed to be applied offline, I think. But, when I applied it offline, it did make the track fall behind the others. I noticed when I inserted it as a real time track fx, it didn't have nearly the latency problem as it did in the aux buss. But, I don't know what would happen at mixdown. I didn't get that far yet. I don't know why it wouldn't work in Sonar for you...I don't use directixer, though, I have the fxpansion adapter.

If anyone knows about how to fix the latency, or if this is even possible, I would be very interested to know where to look for that answer. I know that SIR has a specific number of samples that can't be changed inside SIR itself, or something along these lines, and that latency is a commonly complained about issue.

Now, I think I'll do some surfing on the subject!
-Kirstin

[kgirl72]

So, I didn't even think about sliding the track. I suppose this is acceptable enough, if not a little difficult to get just right. If you know it is going to happen, I suppose you could zoom in on your waveform and make a note of the mbt time it appears initially then match it up with that as your starting reference, couldn't you?

So, that kind of latency is what I noticed on applying the effect offline. As an fx IN the track itself, it sounded all well and good. As an effect in the aux bus, it had the delayed latency where the effected signal was delayed after the dry signal.

Is there anyway to apply an aux effect offline to one track only? Bouncing to track and selecting the aux buss as part of the mixdown? Is that the way?

Kirstin

[Zikes]

Kirstin,
Just did some surfing myself as this peaked my interest in the plug again. If you go to the manufacturers FAQ page, it tells you to "Route all tracks to one group. Insert a Sample Delay in this Group-Track. Use 16384 samples Latency." I guess I'm just not tech enough to figure out how to do this in sonar. I'm guessing now that my newer faster system may not help if it's a fixed sample number of latency issue but I'll find out next week on that.

By the way, I'm pretty sure I got the same latency result applying in the track or in the aux buss but will have to play with it again later.

Good luck to all of us!

http://www.knufinke.de/sir/left_en.html

[kgirl72]

Well, I guess I'd like to know that too. Have to do more reading, unless someone like James or another useful figure moskus, dachay, anyone? can tell us how.

I initially thought of global under midi, but that's buffers in milliseconds. I don't know if there's a connection to this or not.

Thanks, though!
Kirstin

[kgirl72]

Sample Slide

Alright, it looks like THIS is what the SIR folks are saying we use to set the samples. Must be a plug-in also...I'm going to read more on this. It looks like a free download.

Interestingly, also, I think sonar 3 shouldn't need this because that is what plug-in delay compensation does automatically.

-Kirstin

[moskus]

Wow! A reverb based on impulse responses! I've been looking after something like this...

Why haven't anybody told me it existed?

[kgirl72]

someone made a set of impulses of the Pantheon presets. 35 of them, for those of us that would like to hear it at least. I doubt I'll be able to spend that cash on Sonar 3 for awhile, and that sample slide looks pretty cool for the latency compensation.

yea.

The presets are located here

Ciao y'all.
Kirstin

Zikes, I hope you read that about the analogx program, sample slide.

[kylen]

I use VST Adapter v4.3.1 (Cakewalk - VST adapter comes for free in Sonar3) and SIR in SONAR 2.2 to put mixes in different 'rooms' and whatnot. It is very pristine to my ears and the latency isn't an issue in that case since I've basically got is across the 2 buss.

I think over at noisevault.com (where all the free impulses are) some folks were discussing the issue you're talking about and putting SIR on individual tracks and the 16384 sample latency and whatnot. I guess the thing to do is convert the sample length to ms and set a delay on all the other tracks - eech that probably isn't the solution they came up with.

I did something like that after multing a mix into 4 bands with Cool Edit Pro frequency splitter and putting the upper mids into a seperate room. I did that instead of using the SIR crossover that gives me static from time to time (fir problem ?). But I had to put a SIR on earch of the 4 tracks because of the latency problem, 3 tracks had the room turned off, the hi-mids had a Lexicon PCM91 24 bit impulse - it was sweet ! Got the snare cracking and a bit more presence. Come to think of it I had it on the highs too for more 'air'. Impulses rule !

SIR is very fun - but I'm a garage guy so take that with a ton of cinder blocks !

I'm also new around here - glad to meet you all - I'm sure we'll be bitin each others ankles from time to time - seems like a lively and fun group over here !

kylen

[kgirl72]

It is very pristine to my ears and the latency isn't an issue in that case since I've basically got is across the 2 buss.

Hi Kylen,
Could you go into this a bit? What do you mean by got it across the 2 buss? I don't really know a hell of a lot about recording, so I would love if you would explain what this means. I am very interested in how your latency isn't an issue. I have sonar 2.2 and sir, but I've really only been trying this while at work, on my laptop, which, due to the onboard soundcard has some latency issues anyway. I'm going to do it on my desktop which is overall more competent, and see what's up, but I have to scurry off to pick up my daughter and do some home stuff first.

I heard some people talking about 2 buss versus 4 buss the other day. So, just if you could, explain this sentence for me in "dumbed down" terms for a second...how the latency isn't an issue since you've got it across the 2 buss.

Thanks! Good to meet you too, and welcome to the group!
Kirstin

[kgirl72]

Also, the free plugin I linked to earlier, apparently is a real time plug in that slides the effected track over by your specified number of samples. It can be set for a very very very large number...I think they said you can slide your track up to 2 seconds with the plug in. It's meant to adapt to different plugins built in latency, if you know the actual sample number. I downloaded it, but can't tell if it did anything or not. My laptop doesn't like these plug ins with this sound card. I could hook it up to my Layla, but my desktop's already plugged in. So, that's why I need to try this on the music computer later.

Okay, bye for now,
Kirstin

[Middleman]

Kirstin, 2 buss is the main stereo bus, left and right out of your mixer. This is where the final summing of all the mixer channels ends up and you can take this signal into a PA, Soundcard, computer or directly to your studio monitors.

If I put something across the 2 buss, like a compressor, I can say I have a compressor strapped across the 2 buss.

4 buss generally refers to a set of faders that act as submix controls prior to being sent to the 2 buss. For example lets say I want a single fader to control all of my drum mics so I don't have to constantly adjust 4 or 5 channel faders. I can route my kick, cymbal, snare and tom mics (generally you will have more than this) to one of the 4 submix busses, lets say #1 fader. Now I can control all of my drum mics with a single fader, strap a compressor on this buss and get a nice fat drum sound.

If I create a submix for vocals, then guitars and maybe keyboards along with my drum fader, I now have 4 submix controls ie, faders and I can do my mix with just these 4 faders instead of trying to mix 4 drum channels, bass, guitar, keyboards, main vocal and numerous backround vocals which would bring my fader count to 10 or more tracks.

To confuse matters even more, some boards actually have 2 sets of 2 buss which could be called a 4 buss or even more.

A common technique in large studios, which I am just learning by the way, is to create 4 submix faders each EQ'd and compressed differently for various parts of the audio spectrum. This technique will give you a very fat drum and bass sound and is great for filling in with background vocals. Hopefully that was clear.

MM

[kgirl72]

Thanks Middleman...

It's clear for me in terms of hardware, but he did this in Sonar. Would the 2 buss in Sonar be like putting the effect in the A stereo out buss? As opposed to inserting it with an aux or track insert?

I can see exactly what you mean in terms of hardware mixers, and I probably get it in terms of Sonar, but what is the difference as far as latency goes in this circumstance? Why would latency matter less in one situation?

Thanks again,
Kirstin

[Middleman]

Main A is the closest thing in Sonar to a 2 Buss. Actually the soundcard channels Stereo Out is the hardware 2 buss but you can't drop a plug in on it and the Main A you can, if you want 2 buss compression.

Regarding latency and SIR, basically the technology is using some intense CPU cycles and because it is not specifically written for Sonar use, although it works, your probably seeing varying results on tracks vs aux vs Main buss performance. I would guess it would work best on an aux buss but it looks like that is not the case from the information here.

[Zikes]

Kirstin,
I tried SIR in Sonar 3 and it did do the same thing latency wise. Yes, I saw your link to the sample slide plug. I just tried it and it does work so thanks much! You have to add it to everything but the track with the effect though so with multiple tracks, you would have to do some extra work. Maybe the summing thing is the answer, but I have some studying to do on that. At least I can play around with SIR now though! By the way, I have an Echo Layla on the way here which will arrive next Tuesday and have been using a MIA on the old system for quite awhile. If I ever get a laptop, I'll definately get the card bus for the Layla also. This is for my new system which is a speedy one so I will see if it changes the SIR latency but I think it's based on the fixed sample thing. Pretty quick on someones part to create impulses from Pantheon so soon!

[Lostinspice]

Took awhile to get to my rig, but I did a little experimenting. I was able to get SIR to work inserted on a track by raising the latency slider to about 40ms (although for some reason some higer latencies would not work?). However, no matter what I did, I couldn't get it to work when I inserted it into the aux buss.

I also tried to insert it (on a vocal track) in 28 track mix, but it again wouldn't work. I guess it's not a mixdown option. SIR does have a wet/dry mixer onboard, so I guess I'll have to use it offline by creating a track just for the reverb.

By the way, DirectiXer has latency compensation. My (untrained) ears could not detect any lag, so it must work with this plugin.

[Zikes]

Lostinspice,
I'm using the VST adapter version 4 that comes with Sonar 3 and I get a ton of latency. It also had VST delay compensation but I think the plug has to recognize it. Maybe Cakewalks new adapter has different code for this that SIR doesn't recognize. Have you tried running your VST adapter to recognize SIR again? Just a thought. If you have Cakewalks plug in manager on your system you might play around with that also, though I doubt that would do anything. Hope you get the issues worked out.

[johnhoe]

I have just been reading an article about this in the UK in Computer Music NOV 2003. The effect that you are all describing of latency being introduced by VSTi instruments is due to the lack of PDC (Plug-in delay compensation) and is introduced by the various VST-DX wrappers. Although Sonar uses PDC for all native DX plugins, at present, with the wrapper, PDC is not implemented. Hence the tedious need to manually offset that track. In the review of Sonar 3 (p93) the reviewer says "The good news is that PDC will soon be implemented ... within the next two upgrades" (of the CW VST-DX Adapter). I am intruiged to learn if the DirectX-iser wrapper really does support PDC or whether the Sonar code needs to support this feature too, in order for the latency compensation to work.

[mace]

Have anybody tried this latest version of Directixer with
SIR? They say it will include full PDC , so SIR should
work too without enermous latency!

[moskus]

Okay... I just have a question about SIR:

Where do I get the Impulse Responses? Do they have to be pre-made or can I use some of my own?

Anybody out there use WinMLS?

[kgirl72]

here

here

Those are a couple of places...and Moskus, you can make your own, but only if you share them with us!! Kidding. These were all made by different people, so go for making some yourself.

This conversation is getting interesting to me!
-Kirstin

[moskus]

Originally posted by kgirl72
Moskus, you can make your own, but only if you share them with us!!

Of course I will share them. That's part of my work, measuring Impulse Responses for rooms.

I just have to figure out the format.