presonus blue pre

[robjh22]

Billisa - FYI: I'm returning my presonus and getting a better preamp, an ART, dual channel. Hope it's quieter. It better be, know wadda mean?

[billisa]

I've heard nice things about the ART preamps... Never heard one. I'm by no means an expert on all the options. I would say this... if you don't like the ART then consider getting a Studio Projects VTB1 or an M-Audio DMP3.

I can vouch for the VTB1. VERY QUIET & CLEAN.

Let us know which ART you got and how you like it.

[JR#97]

The ART is about par with Presonus Blue tube in terms of noise. Which isn't a whole lot of noise unless you have the thing cranked. What kind of noise are you getting? Are you using proper gain staging? Which Fostex unit are you using?

[robjh22]

I don't know the proper names for noise. I guess I'd call it white noise, kind of a high frequency hiss when it's cranked high (and I have it cranked rather high because I'm using it to drive dynamic mikes.) I have 2 new condensers, and LD and an SD, that I haven't tried. If that's the prob, maybe I should experiment with the condensers together with the presonus at lower gain before spending the extra $200. Can I get a duh?

I have a VF 80. I don't know what "gain staging is," so I doubt that I'm doing anything "properly." Please elaborate. I have to say I am getting better at this. From the first day when I just plugged a cheap dynamic right into the vf80 and played my Martin right into the mike at close range and pointed right into the sound hole. That was a bad day!

Your servant,

Rob

[JR#97]

Ah... makes sense now. With tube pre's, they get noisy when you crank them no matter how nice the unit. that's the nature of tubes. Even with dynamic mic's, you should be able to get a good signal with low noise.

Gain staging is adjusting all of the points in your chain that have adjustable gain/input/volume/whatever to get a good balance. In other words, you don't want to crank the Presonus and have the VF turned down all the way or vice versa.

I would start setting the tube pre to where you get the amount of tube drive you want and then adjust the gain until you get to the point of too much noise. Then adjust the input gain on your VF to make up the difference until you get your level. If you're still getting noise, try and figure out which unit is causing the noise.... and turn it down and adjust the other device accordingly. Another thing about using external pre's is that it's better to use the 1/4" out into your recorder rather than the XLR input.

[billisa]

I can only speak for the Studio Projects VTB1, with their B1 mic. On the VF80, what you want to do is turn the VF80's pres all the way down, only using the gain on the VTB1. The VTb1 is pretty much dead quiet... Same thing as you dial in the tube.

The Studio Projects B1 mic has a self-noise of only 12db, so it's pretty quiet to begin with. The VTB1 s/n ratio is about 129db -- about 40 db better than the Presonus Blue Tube if I remember correctly. Plus, the VTB1 retails for about $120.00 (remember it's one channel, not two).

With the VTB1 on the Solid State setting, the tube is not in the circuit, but even with the tube dialed in, the thing is quiet. You can dial in distortion if you want, but not a whole lot of noise.

Now, the Rode NT1a has a self noise of on 5db! That, and the VTB1 and you'd REALLY have quiet!

Check out the Pro Audio review of the VTB1 -- it's right on the money.

[robjh22]

Thanks, men, I got plenty to work with now. (Why do I assume everyone is a man? There are few femmes around here...no offense to you all.) Billisa, are you also going out of your pre and into the 1/4" input and not the xlr on your 80?

If all this is true, what difference does a nicer pre ever make? You can spend several grand on the things.

[billisa]

I use the XLR out to the XLR in on the VF80. Because someone advised that'd be the best way to go. I have not actually made an a/b comparison between the VTB1 and the VF80 pre.

I like the fact that the VTB1 offers the opportunity to dial in some incremental tube "warmth". I also like the fact that if I have to use a lot of gain, the VTB1 has a reputation for staying quiet.

Still, I must say the VF80's pres were not crying out to be avoided. I think you'd have to listen pretty hard to hear a difference, and on some sources, might not hear a difference at all!

Some say, well given the cost of the whole VF80, how much could the pres be worth (how good could they be?). But with mass production (in China) I'm not sure how valid this argument really is. Certainly, the pres aren't bad, and in most cases are quite good.

[a12stringer]

How does the Studio Projects pre compare to the PreSonus or ART pres in terms of price and has anyone done any "head-to-head" comparisons/reviews between the three? (Or four since Musician's Friend now offers the Behringer Ultragain Pro Mic 2200 for less than $100.00.)
I've been away from recording for several months working on some other projects (writing a Hebrew workbook for a class I teach, moving, and the various and sundry projects associated with acquiring a home to call one's own) so had put aside my search for a couple of good mic preamps (since I'm not getting enough gain from the internal pres on my VF-80). Now I'm getting my home studio back in order and want to get some mic pres.

Thanks for all your input.

[billisa]

What a busy person, and what great work!

I owned a Behringer UltraGain 2200. It developed a persistent hum. I now own a pair of VTB1's. I love 'em. VERY quiet, even with a ton of gain, plus you can dial in a tube into the signal path. The VTB1's have a S/N ratio of about 129db.

From what I've heard the Presonus Blue Tube is very noisy.

Others like the M-Audio DMP3 -- 2-channel for $200. It's S/N runs about 119 DB.

Now, the truth is, I've made some fine recordings with the VF80 pre's (and my musically trained son can't hear any difference between them and the VTB1's, when no tube is applied on the VTB1).

Maybe I should A/B compare. If I do, I'll post my opinions here.

[robjh22]

I have decided that the noise from my presonus is coming from the driver. Since I need no distortion at all, I figure I'd turn that down to zero and see what happens. I found it hard to get volume w/o the gain being all the way up. It may be that I just don't need to crank up the presonus as much as I have been assuming -- the final product (CD) goes into a player that has its own volume control anyway, and most have more amp power than the fostex. Am I right?

BTW, if it was not clear, this "noise" I've been referring to throughout is the same kind of hiss you hear, in between songs or before a song comes on, when you turn up your stereo full blast.

[a12stringer]

Sort of like tape hiss on cassette tapes?

[robjh22]

12 stringer, yes, but to all: I've got it!

I have finally mastered a group of settings for recording my classical guitar on my Fostex VF80 that work very nicely.

I set a small diaph. condenser mike at about 14" from the bridge and pointed at the bridge. I set the gain on my external presonus blue preamp at about 90%, set the internal preamp on the recorder at 40%, and the tube drive to near zero. Very nice! I had been hearing this hissing "white" noise using the internal pre (alone) cranked all the way with a dynamic, then bought the external pre and a condenser and it was better but still noisy. Then I turned the tube drive down to zero, set the reverb at around 20% of max, and there we have it! Now I sound like Segovia. Well, not exactly. I guess I wasted my money with that stupid tube drive feature, which I bet I'll never use since it's so noisy.

Billisa, you were right about the internal pre on the Fostex -- it works well, esp. with a decent mike and combined with the external pre, so long as you don't overcrank it. I assumed I'd never get enough volume on playback without it cranked all the way. I guess the bottom line is that I disagree with the notion that you should turn the Fostex pre to near zero if using an external pre. Ther's no noise problem going that route, at any rate.

Thanks especially to JR#97 and Billisa for your invaluable tips.

[billisa]

Hey Rob,

Glad you found the right sweet spot for your gear. Remember, you want the highest level you can get going into the Fostex without clipping. Also, according to the Fostex website (and not uncommon for other units) the clip lights can start to flash on occasion without any clipping actually happening. You can hear clipping because it sounds like crunching, crackiling garbage -- not like a little distortion, ala analogue tape.

So, you really want your input level on the VF80 to be consistently up near and touching the very top line on the meter. Same thing when mixing down and mastering. Otherwise on your final CD, if you have to add a lot of volume at playback, you'll be hearing significant noise. This will be very apparent on solo vocals or classical guitar... Also, be aware that on the Mastering sequence, the default for the VF80 is to have the Compression ON. If you use compression, then during the quiet passages, it may tend to boost the silence -- thus raising up backround hiss. Try not using the compression when you master -- particularly with the classical guitar. Another trick... When your track is mixed down to 7/8, then erase the section between 0 and the actual start of the music. Use the WAVE Scrub function to determine this. This way, any ambient noise that was present before the song actually starts will be totally gone.

The VF80 is capable of VERY, VERY quiet recordings, but it is also very capable of reproducing any ambient or extraneous noise that is present. Ah yes! Digital accuracy!

[robjh22]

Thanks for the tip on compression, Bill.

As for scrubbing and deleting noise on the front end, I am hip to that and yes, it works nicely. I don't think we ever resolved the problem on the other end which I posted a few weeks back: if you scrub/delete noise at the END of the song too soon, you abruptly cut off the sound of the decaying note, and it's jarring. If you do it too late, the internal recorder or preamp noise gradually encroaches on the decaying note and overtakes it and that's a problem too. See what I mean? I guess it's a matter of compromise.

Maybe more reverb. Or a wah wah pedal. Yeah, that should do it.

I am going to listen more critically to my classic guitar CD's and try to figure out what the pros do.

[a12stringer]

Billisa,
Who carries the Studio Projects pre? I get both the Musician's Friend and the American Music Supply catalogs and have not found it in either? Or is this something I'll need to obtain through a local dealer?

[billisa]

Originally posted by a12stringer
Billisa,
Who carries the Studio Projects pre? I get both the Musician's Friend and the American Music Supply catalogs and have not found it in either? Or is this something I'll need to obtain through a local dealer?

I got mine from 8th Street Music. They're based in Philly, and I like dealing with them. Knowledgeable, and with normal shipping, the gear arrives next day (to CT).