Bright Coloration - A List of Mics

bgavin · #1 12-31-2003

This thread will hopefully develop into a good list of bright/crispy mics, as opposed to dark ones.

The intent is finding a crisp/bright mic to lighten a heavy, dark source.

ozraves · #2 12-31-2003

A quality mic with this sound is the Blue Dragonfly. It's airy without being grating or strident. I like it on vocals and on acoustic guitar.

ChristopherDawn · #3 01-01-2004

I'm read the C1 is very bright.

mixsit · #4 01-01-2004

There's a lot designed to be worked 'up-close' that go there naturally as you get back off a bit -rising tops, slopping off on the low end. Not sure if you want to go there...SM87's, 421, ect...
Wayne

Dot · #5 01-01-2004

If you're going to use some classifications, it might be good to straighten them out.

There are "dark" mics because they are not bright. There are bright mics because they have a boosted top end.

There are "colored" mics - which color the sound. And there are neutral mics that do not color the sound as much. Then there are "transparent" mics which have no noticable color at all.

So, "bright" is not "coloration". You can have a dark colored mic like the MXL V69 ME. And you can have a bright colored mic like the SP C1. You can have a bright neutral mic like the AKG 414.

Some bright, neutral mics:
AKG 414
AKG 451 SDC
Most newer AKG condenser mics fall into this category
AT 4050 - most AT mics are in this category. Some are less bright.
SP B1 - all B series
Red5 Audio RV8
ADK TL

Some bright colored mics:
SP C1 - all C series
Blue Blueberry
T.H.E. KA-04
Neumann U87
Nuemann TLM103
Most newer Neumanns fall into this category - but they're not as bright as the AKG's

Then there are more transparent mics such as DPA and Earthworks.

Dan Richards
The Listening Sessions
The Project Studio Handbook

cominginsecond · #6 01-01-2004

Quote:

Originally posted by Dot
If you're going to use some classifications, it might be good to straighten them out.

There are "dark" mics because they are not bright. There are bright mics because they have a boosted top end.

There are "colored" mics - which color the sound. And there are neutral mics that do not color the sound as much. Then there are "transparent" mics which have no noticable color at all.

So, "bright" is not "coloration". You can have a dark colored mic like the MXL V69 ME. And you can have a bright colored mic like the SP C1. You can have a bright neutral mic like the AKG 414.

Some bright, neutral mics:
AKG 414
AKG 451 SDC
Most newer AKG condenser mics fall into this category
AT 4050 - most AT mics are in this category. Some are less bright.
SP B1 - all B series
Red5 Audio RV8
ADK TL

Some bright colored mics:
SP C1 - all C series
Blue Blueberry
T.H.E. KA-04
Neumann U87
Nuemann TLM103
Most newer Neumanns fall into this category - but they're not as bright as the AKG's

Then there are more transparent mics such as DPA and Earthworks.

Dan Richards
The Listening Sessions
The Project Studio Handbook

So, what in the hell is "color" if it's not a particular way of responding to frequencies?

I always thought that this was the case: there was a continuum with dark on one end, bright on the other, and neutral in the middle. If a mic fell roughly in the middle it was "neutral", and if it fell on the extremes somewhere, it was "colored," either in a bright or a dark way. Tell me where I missed the boat.

mandocaster · #7 01-01-2004

I think a little bit of (hopefully) pleasing distortion would constitute "color".

Maybe

Dot · #8 01-02-2004

I am not a mic designer or a tech by any means. "Color" is often introduced to audio components by the use of transformers and other various components. Transformers are mainly made with a mixture of iron and nickle - and the signal, running through those metals "color" the sound. That's sometimes why you hear of a piece of gear really having some "iron". You can hear the "iron".

And introducing some mild distortion - which the ear hears naturally and finds pleasing - is a way of coloring the sound. Tubes can also - but not necessarily - introduce color into the signal path.

So one plane of describing the tonal character would go from dark to bright.

Another, perpendicular plane, would go from colored to neutral to transparent.

Here's a graph of some different mics and where they would approximately be positioned based on their sound. I've been wanting to start this anyway - seems as good a time as any. I'm also working on one for mic preamps.

Dan Richards
The Listening Sessions
The Project Studio Handbook

Rimshot · #9 01-02-2004

Among the dynamic mics, the Sennheisser e835 is very bright and it has real good tone. It's a good vocal mic for cutting through a lot of bass tone and I use it as a hi-hat mic or a snare mic when I'm playing with brushes. It's not that awfully expensive either.

cominginsecond · #10 01-02-2004

Quote:

Originally posted by Dot
I am not a mic designer or a tech by any means. "Color" is often introduced to audio components by the use of transformers and other various components. Transformers are mainly made with a mixture of iron and nickle - and the signal, running through those metals "color" the sound. That's sometimes why you hear of a piece of gear really having some "iron". You can hear the "iron".

And introducing some mild distortion - which the ear hears naturally and finds pleasing - is a way of coloring the sound. Tubes can also - but not necessarily - introduce color into the signal path.

So one plane of describing the tonal character would go from dark to bright.

Another, perpendicular plane, would go from colored to neutral to transparent.

Here's a graph of some different mics and where they would approximately be positioned based on their sound. I've been wanting to start this anyway - seems as good a time as any. I'm also working on one for mic preamps.

Thanks for your answer. What does color sound like? The distortion answer made sense to me, but then you seemed to say that distortion was only one way to color the sound. What does transformer color sound like, and why is it not reducible to frequency response?

I've owned both the B1, a mic you say is fairly neutral, and the V67, which you say is very colored. The only differences I perceive between these two mics have to do with their frequency response (The B1 is truer to the source, but does not emphasize frequencies that tend to flatter most voices. The V67 is not as true to the source, but tends to emphasize frequencies that flatter many voices). What should I be listening for so that I can determine how much "color" is in each of these mics?

Dot · #11 01-02-2004

Yes, ultimately color=distortion. More color=more distortion. But it is - for the most part - controlled distortion. One of the reasons Neve mic preamps have remained popular are due to a very specific type of distortion based on the design of the input and the output transformers. And when those transformers have more signal driven into them, they begin to distort more - which translates into an often pleasing type of coloration of the sound. That sound is often referred to as "iron in the path".

Transformers - depending on which designer you talk to - will tend to slow down the signal. So while, on one hand you may introduce a nice type of colored distortion into the signal, the negative side effect of that is that the frequencies - especialy the faster higher ones, don't pass as quickly through the path. That results in a lessening of the overall imagery, definition and 3-dimensional depth.

Mics and preamps that are specifically designed to be very fast - and allowing the signal to pass through the component as unhindered as possible - are often [ but not always ] transformerless. What that type of design does is colors the signal much less, and since it's allowing all the frequencies to pass through faster - the end result is a much better presentation of imagery in the overall recording - especially stereo recordings.

So, if you want more detail and imagery on a particular track - like acoustic guitar, you might chose a neutral or transparent mic - and mic pre - so that all the frequencies are presented at a similar speed at which travel naturally fom the source. That type of sound is also often desired on drum overheads - so that what is recorded gives a nice spacial detail of the kit. But then lets say you have an amped electric guitar part that you really want to sound big and have balls and energy. Well, for that you'd be more interested in introducing some color/distortion - and less in preserving the "imagery" - you just want in-your-face balls to the wall sound. That's often true of kick and even snare - where you don't care as much about spacial information - just more about energy and the right tone.

So, if you're listening to your B1 - notice how much more detail and imagery it can pick up than your V67. But also notice how the V67 can give a more classic, almost retro sound. The B1 sounds much more modern than the V67.

Dan Richards
The Listening Sessions
The Project Studio Handbook

Dot · #12 01-02-2004

Quote:

Originally posted by cominginsecond
Thanks for your answer. What does color sound like?

Color can sound different. It can sound as though "warmth" were being added to the signal. It can make the signal sound bigger or wider - or like it has something in the signal that's giving it more "energy" or "balls".

Color, also, if you listen - can sound like a lose of spacial defintion and less overall imagery in the signal. That "lose" is often not a bad thing in many cases, and can be desired.

Tracks where you might want more color instead of spacial information would be:

Kick
Snare
Toms
Guitar amps
Bass
Some vocals - depending on the voice and particular song. As "color" can add texture and even thicken a thin voice.
Some brass instruments - tones down their "blasty" sound.

Tracks where it's more often desired to have more spacial information - i.e. imagery

Drum OH's
Cymbals
Percussion instruments
Acoustic Guitar
Piano
Orchestras
Woodwinds
Voices - if they are already "full" and rich-sounding
Room mics

And there are all varying degrees of mics, mic pres and other components that fall on the scale in different places - and are used in much the same way that a painter applies different colors and textures to a painting.

Dan Richards
The Listening Sessions
The Project Studio Handbook

ChristopherDawn · #13 01-02-2004

Quote:

Originally posted by Dot

Dan Richards
The Listening Sessions
The Project Studio Handbook

Hey Dan. Just an idea for these graphs, but maybe put a dot where the mic or preamp will be, or maybe a number and put a list on the sides with the numbers with corresponding preamps and mics. I'm saying this because the names get so long you don't really know where they sit on the graph.

Dot · #14 01-02-2004

That's a good idea, Christopher. Names could make the graph fill up pretty quickly. : )

I'm playing with a grid system - like "Battleship" - so that a mic could be called "A-6".

Still very early in the game, but I've been talking to some designers about this for awhile, and it came up at the AES show in a few conversations.

Mic pres would not be on a grid like that, but more on a linear continuum - because mics pres don't tend to be "bright" or "dark" - but more on the line of transparent to neutral to colored.

Dan Richards
The Listening Sessions
The Project Studio Handbook

bgavin · #15 01-02-2004

Dot,

Many thanks for the graph! That picture tells a thousand words, for sure.

I understand a work in progress... the spread sheet in my signature is an ongoing work. No graphs, but thousands of data line entries.

OFGB and Musicians Reference

cominginsecond · #16 01-02-2004

Thanks for the info, Dot!

Jeremy

Recording Engineer · #17 01-02-2004

Dot, the C12 is one of the ones closest to the Dark-side on your graph... I'm REALLY confused now....

cominginsecond · #18 01-02-2004

Quote:

Originally posted by Recording Engineer
Dot, the C12 is one of the ones closest to the Dark-side on your graph... I'm REALLY confused now....

Yeah that's what I'd always heard. Here's a quote I found on the internet:

"Allen Sides states: The C12 is sort of the standard overhead drum mic of choice at Ocean Way, and it's fair to say that 80 percent of all recordings done at our studios use them. They are unparalleled for background vocals and make excellent lead vocal mics provided sibilance is not a problem, as they are very bright."

Recording Engineer · #19 01-02-2004

Exactly! Just a couple months ago, I was at a session at a major studio in San Francisco. We miked-up the drums and used only 1 OH... Guess which mic we chose... The ever-so-bright C12.

cominginsecond · #20 01-02-2004

I would love just an afternoon with a mic of that caliber. I want to see what all the fuss is about

.

Dot · #21 01-02-2004

Disregard where the C12 might have been when you may have happened to see it. I was sliding mics around on the graph. Uploading at different versions.

And no, the C12 would not go on the darker side.

I posted earlier:
Some bright, neutral mics:
AKG 414
AKG 451 SDC
Most newer AKG condenser mics fall into this category

Dan Richards
The Listening Sessions
The Project Studio Handbook

bgavin · #22 01-02-2004

I want an updated copy of the chart when it becomes available.

Puleez

Dot · #23 01-02-2004

Quote:

Originally posted by bgavin
I want an updated copy of the chart when it becomes available.

Ha! That was just a quicky to demonstrate the different characteristics of mics. This'll be an ongoing process for several months.

I'll bump this topic when I have more in a couple of weeks.

Dan Richards
The Listening Sessions
The Project Studio Handbook

bgavin · #24 01-02-2004

For space sake, consider using a two digit numeric marker for the graph position, and a legend that identifies the number.

OFGB and Musicians Reference

Dot · #25 01-02-2004

Ultimately, I don't think there will be any names in the graph. The graph will get assigned sectors - just like "Battleship" and then each mic will get assigned whatever part on the grid they happen to correspond.

If I divide each of those four big sections in to 5 X 5 sections - for a total of 25 "squares" in each sector - then I could simply describe an MXL V69ME as a "D-22" - and you'd know exactly where it fit in on the graph - and it's relationship to the other mics - and that it is a very dark and very colored mic.

Somethin' like that.

Dan Richards
The Listening Sessions
The Project Studio Handbook