Do you know the note names on the fretboard?

[didgijimmy]

Originally Posted by Roguetitan

that dude has got some chops Mang

Yeah he does, gotta say I'm not a fan of his way compressed tone, but dood can play. Thx Castle.

[Roguetitan]

Originally Posted by GOYA

Just a remainder of where this began.



Your analogy fails miserably. Playing a guitar isn't welding. There is no setting on a guitar/guitarist that makes it/him play well. And knowing that a note you are playing is an F# doesn't make it sound any better. Maybe I was blessed with talent although "shredding" is not what I do or even have a desire to do. Perhaps I have a limited understanding of what shred means but would you say that B. B. King shredded? You see, the vast majority of my gigging has been playing the blues. The musicians I've played with know the blues and there is no need of telling someone which notes to play. No need. In fact, I wouldn't dream of telling someone else what to play. Maybe you feel that a blues guitarist can't be accomplished. By the way:

ac⋅com⋅plished
–adjective
1. completed; done; effected: an accomplished fact.
2. highly skilled; expert: an accomplished pianist.
3. having all the social graces, manners, and other attainments of polite society.

You appear to have assumed the wrong definition of that word.

I have and do play other kinds of music and the same things apply. But if you want to be a studio musician, more power to you. I can feel quite satisfied simply sitting in my bedroom playing music that I like and playing it well.

Also note that I'm saying that I don't need ANY knowledge of the neck. If a key is called you need to know where to start. But knowing which notes are in a riff or some solo phrase is not helpful to me. The positions are simply based on the root.

There is more I could say but I feel as though it would be pointless and I have better things to do.

the analogy was a pretty good one in my opinion, some of the more intellectual folks just have to have things explained to them more specifically than others I guess

Thanks for the spelling lesson but I am fully aware of the definition of accomplished
the highest form of accomplishment is getting paid for what you are accomplished at that is my form of the definition in a nutshell.
like I said before if you are not looking to playing as a career then not knowing is fine that is all I was saying and pretty much what you just pointed out in this post and like Digijimmy pointed out before me not knowing is not going to get you much further than the door of your bedroom
I think that is pretty much all either one of us was saying so with that I guess we are finished here

Have a good one

[castlerock]

Originally Posted by Roguetitan

that dude has got some chops Mang

Originally Posted by didgijimmy

Yeah he does, gotta say I'm not a fan of his way compressed tone, but dood can play. Thx Castle.

yup. tone aside, his melodic lead style always tickled my ears. he's one of the guitarist (unknown at that) that i never get tired of hearing.

[dodgeaspen]

I know nothing, nothing, nothing.

[kcearl]

I dont even know the chord names...who cares

[Greg_L]

I know all of the notes and real chords but don't use any of them.

[DrewPeterson7]

Originally Posted by Greg_L

I know all of the notes and real chords but don't use any of them.

Aren't you a drummer?

[Greg_L]

Originally Posted by DrewPeterson7

Aren't you a drummer?

Yeah, primarily. Drums are my favorite by far, but I am multi-instrumental. Guitar was my first instrument.

[ibleedburgundy]

Originally Posted by Greg_L

I know all of the notes and real chords but don't use any of them.

Any two or more notes at the same time is a real chord. Nothing escapes the omnipotent realm of music theory.

[Greg_L]

Originally Posted by ibleedburgundy

Nothing escapes the omnipotent realm of music theory.

Except for me.

[chamelious]

Has anyone ever noticed the people who dont know theory are a lot more hostile about their way of doing things than the people that do?

IMO, there is no right way to do music. If you want to be a professional musician, chances are you are going to need music theory. You don't walk into a studio session, and when the producer asks you for improvisation in E phyrgian dominant, say errr is it ok if i just use E blues scale.

Personally i'll take all the theory i can get, as i find it increasingly easy to write music the more i find out. And ultimately that's the point for me, getting the music out of my head, into the audiences ears.

[DrewPeterson7]

Originally Posted by ibleedburgundy

Any two or more notes at the same time is a real chord. Nothing escapes the omnipotent realm of music theory.

Actually [drew puts on his pedantic smarty-pants hat] in western theory any three notes played simultaneously, a triad, is a chord. Two notes at a time, a diad, aren't generally considered chords in the system of tertiary harmony. [drew takes off his pendantic smarty-pants hat]

Boobies.

[muttley600]

Originally Posted by ibleedburgundy

Any two or more notes at the same time is a real chord. Nothing escapes the omnipotent realm of music theory.

Technically you need three notes to construct a chord so three or more. Two notes would be an interval, two intervals would be a chord so long as one of the intervals is not an octave or unison.

[Greg_L]

Originally Posted by chamelious

Has anyone ever noticed the people who dont know theory are a lot more hostile about their way of doing things than the people that do?
.

That's because theory people are semen gargling douchebags.

[muttley600]

Originally Posted by chamelious

Has anyone ever noticed the people who dont know theory are a lot more hostile about their way of doing things than the people that do?

IMO, there is no right way to do music. If you want to be a professional musician, chances are you are going to need music theory. You don't walk into a studio session, and when the producer asks you for improvisation in, say errr is it ok if i just use E blues scale.

Personally i'll take all the theory i can get, as i find it increasingly easy to write music the more i find out. And ultimately that's the point for me, getting the music out of my head, into the audiences ears.

Much as I loves me some theory, if I walked into a session and a producer asked me for an improvisation in E phyrgian dominant I'd walk right out again regardless of whether I could oblige or not.

[muttley600]

Originally Posted by DrewPeterson7

Actually [drew puts on his pedantic smarty-pants hat] in western theory any three notes played simultaneously, a triad, is a chord. Two notes at a time, a diad, aren't generally considered chords in the system of tertiary harmony. [drew takes off his pendantic smarty-pants hat]

Boobies.

Drew mate that ain't smarty pants stuff that's basic gerg level stuff.

[Greg_L]

Originally Posted by muttley600

Drew mate that ain't smarty pants stuff that's basic gerg level stuff.

Yeah, even I knew that. Seriously.

[muttley600]

Originally Posted by Greg_L

Yeah, even I knew that. Seriously.

I had faith in you all along.

Now you're gonna tell me an interval is the gap between two drum beats aren't you.

[Greg_L]

Originally Posted by muttley600

I had faith in you all along.

Now you're gonna tell me an interval is the gap between two drum beats aren't you.

There are no gaps between my drum beats.

[chamelious]

Originally Posted by muttley600

Much as I loves me some theory, if I walked into a session and a producer asked me for an improvisation in E phyrgian dominant I'd walk right out again regardless of whether I could oblige or not.

Even if the CD you were sessioning on was entitled "yngwie style wank not played by yngwie"?

[muttley600]

Originally Posted by chamelious

Even if the CD you were sessioning on was entitled "yngwie style wank not played by yngwie"?

Especially then.

[Greg_L]

Originally Posted by chamelious

Has anyone ever noticed the people who dont know theory are a lot more hostile about their way of doing things than the people that do?

IMO, there is no right way to do music. If you want to be a professional musician, chances are you are going to need music theory. You don't walk into a studio session, and when the producer asks you for improvisation in E phyrgian dominant, say errr is it ok if i just use E blues scale.

Personally i'll take all the theory i can get, as i find it increasingly easy to write music the more i find out. And ultimately that's the point for me, getting the music out of my head, into the audiences ears.

Aren't you the guy who's drummer can't play to a click or something like that? Funny how a guy so hellbent on theory would partner up with a shitty drummer.

[joeym]

what......those little dots have NAMES?????

[muttley600]

Originally Posted by joeym

what......those little dots have NAMES?????

They sure do.

This post made me piss myself laughing when I read it originally. It's worth quoting again just to put this whole thing in perspective.

Learn to play guitar and enjoy it. Learn some theory and enjoy it. If the two match any time that's good too but not essential.

Anyway here's that post.

Originally Posted by RICK FITZPATRICK

Cool. No problem. The answer to the first question is...

Since the tone Dave is the tonic, the chords ROOT name is Dave, and since Dave is the Seventh tone in a diatonic scale, it hence becomes a:
DAVE HALF DIMINSIHED chord.

Since only human names were applied to unknown tones, we have no way of knowing a relative known pitch, such as 440 hz applied to a given tone.
If we ARBITRARILY apply 440hz to the tone Dave, we now have a relative position in a Chromatic scale to start from. Since "I" applied certain intervals to a FEW of the given names, I can now mathamatically deduce their frequency and interval distance, that is, IF we apply their relative pitches. That is, IF, we use EQUAL TEMPERED intonation whereby the scale(chromatic)
s determined by the formula:
fn = f0 * (a)n
where
f0 = the frequency of one fixed note which must be defined. A common choice is setting the DAVE above middle C on a piano, (DAVE4) at f0 = 440 Hz.
n = the number of half steps away from the fixed note you are. If you are at a higher note, n is positive. If you are on a lower note, n is negative.
fn = the frequency of the note n half steps away.
a = (2)1/12 = the twelth root of 2 = the number which when multiplied by itself 12 times equals 2 = 1.059463094359...

The wavelength of the sound for the notes is found from Wn = c/fn
where W is the wavelength and c is the speed of sound. The speed of sound depends on temperature, but is approximately 345 m/s at "room temperature."



Now we have a way to establish the frequency of all 12 tones in ONE OCTAVE of an Equal Tempered Chromatic Scale. However, we only have applied a name to one tone...ie...DAVE. Now lets figure out the rest. So far, our GIVEN tones and intervals from 440hz are as follows:
Sally(m3rd), Suzan(b5), Ebeneezer(b7) and Dave(tonic)

For instance

Since all Chromatic pitches or tones are a HALF STEP(one fret), or an interval of a minor second, and our first pitch is 440hz, it is relatively easy to calculate the pitches of ALL 12 of the Chromatic tones, which is the same as applying a pitch to each fret on the fretboard. Since 440hz is a given, and 440hz is above middle C on a piano, and assuming this "C" is the fourth
octave, then this C=C4, then using Equal Tempered tuning, the rest of the pitches can be defined thus.

Examples using DAVE = 440 Hz:
I have already applied the name "SALLY" to an interval of a Min3(b3) above Dave.
Since a Min3 is 3 halfsteps(3 frets) above a given note, and our given is 440hz, then it follows that our Min3 is=C4(above the middle C on a piano, and "our" name for this tone is "SALLY", it

follows that Sally5 =C5, as well as middle C (C4/Sally4)on a piano.
Hence
Sally5 = the Sally an octave above middle Sally. This is 3 half steps above Dave4 and so the frequency is
f3 = 440 * (1.059463..)3 = 523.3 Hz
If your calculator does not have the ability to raise to powers, then use the fact that
(1.059463..)3 = (1.059463..)*(1.059463..)*(1.059463..)
That is, you multiply it by itself 3 times.

Middle Sally is 9 half steps below Dave4 and the frequency is:
f -9 = 440 * (1.05463..)-9 = 261.6 Hz
If you don't have powers on your calculator, remember that the negative sign on the power means you divide instead of multiply. For this example, you divide by (1.05463..) 9 times.

Using the same logic, our "Susan", being a b5, is 6 half steps(six frets) above DAVE4, and DAVE4=440hz

Now, let me apply "our" names to the calculated frequencies. However, since we only have 5 names, out of a possible 12 chromatic tones, then we must come up with 7 more names. I will arbitrarily apply some. Maybe you can figure out where they are on the fretboard. Here is a clue.
DAVE4 is on the skinnyest string at the 5th fret. . Also, for the sake of this chart, I will abbreviate the Names as follows.

DAVE=Dv (=A note)
SALLY=S (=C)
SUSAN=Sn1/Sn2 (=Eb/D#) Note that Sally uses S, and now we have another name beginning with "S", soooooooo...
since, standard notation requires the use of b's and #'s to denote
ENHARMONIC tones, the use of SUSAN requires TWO SUSANS!!! fuck! And since these enharmonic tones are based on the tone below and above, now we are REALLY confusing the shit out of nameing these tones...ie. If the tone Sn1 is actually a sharped note of the tone below it, now it becomes something else. Fuck. See below.

Ebeneezer=E (=G note)

For the sake coherence, I would like to pick the rest of the names using the standard "note" names as the beginning letter of the rest. Unfortunately, this becomes difficult as we have already used SIMILAR names. Sooooooooooooo...

George=G= fuck, G note is already defined by Ebeneezer and is named (E) which is what I was going to use for the note "E", which I was going to define by....Ethan, BUT NOW I CAN"T

FUCK! FUCK! FUCK!

Ok, nevermind, lets do this:

SALLY=C note

FRANK1/FRANK2=C#/Db note......SHIT! That means C#(SALLY#) is the same as Db(BILLb) which is the same as FRANK! fuck.......

BILL=D note

SUSAN=D#/Eb note......SHIT! That means D#(Bill#) is the same as Eb(CAROLEb) which is the same as SUSAN! fuck.......

CAROLE=E note

MIKE=F note

LISA=F#/Gb ..SHIT! That means F#(MIKE#) is the same as Gb(EBENEEZERb) which is the same as LISA! fuck.......

EBENEEZER=G note

LINDA=G#/Ab.....SHIT! That means G#(EBENEEZER#) is the same as Ab(DAVEb) which is the same as....good grief....LINDA!!....fuck me

DAVE=A

RONDA=A#/Bb......crap, here we go again. This means A#(DAVE#) is the same as Bb(HOLLYb) which is the.same as......fuck it.

HOLLY=B

Now lets build SEVEN OCTAVES of these 12 notes.

Note

Frequency (Hz)

SALLY0/C0

16.35

FRANK0/C#0/Db0

17.32

BILL0/D0

18.35

SUSAN0/D#0/Eb0

19.45

CAROLE0/E0

20.60

MIKE0/F0

21.83

LISA0/F#0/Gb0

23.12

EBENEEZER0/G0

24.50

LINDA0/G#0/Ab0

25.96

DAVE0/A0

27.50

RONDA0/A#0/Bb0

29.14

HOLLY0/B0

30.87

SALLY1/C1

32.70

FRANK0/C#1/Db1

34.65

BILL1/D1

36.71

SUSAN1/D#1/Eb1

38.89

CAROLE1/E1

41.20

MIKE1/F1

43.65

LISA1/F#1/Gb1

46.25

EBENEEZER0/G1

49.00

LINDA1/G#1/Ab1

51.91

DAVE1/A1

55.00

RONDA1/A#1/Bb1

58.27

HOLLY1/B1

61.74

SALLY2/C2

65.41

FRANK2/C#2/Db2F

69.30

BILL2/D2

73.42

SUSAN2/D#2/Eb2

77.78

CAROLE2/E2

82.41

MIKE2/F2

87.31

LISA2/F#2/Gb2

92.50

EBENEEZER2/G2

98.00

LINDA2/G#2/Ab2

103.83

RONDA2/A#2/Bb2

116.54

HOLLY1/B2

123.47

SALLY3/C3

130.81

FRANK3/C#3/Db3

138.59

BILL3/D3

146.83

SUSAN3/D#3/Eb3

155.56

CAROLE3/E3

164.81

MIKE3/F3

174.61

LISA3/F#3/Gb3

185.00

EBENEEZER3/G3

196.00

LINDA3/G#3/Ab3

207.65

DAVE3/A3

220.00

RONDA3/A#3/Bb3

233.08

HOLLY3/B3

246.94

SALLY4/C4

261.63

FRANK4/C#4/Db4

277.18

BILL4/D4

293.66

SUSAN4/D#4/Eb4

311.13

CAROLE4/E4

329.63

MIKE4/F4

349.23

LISA4/F#4/Gb4

369.99

EBENEEZER4/G4

392.00

LINDA4/G#4/Ab4

415.30

DAVE4/A4

440.00

RONDA4/A#/Bb4

466.16

HOLLY4/B4

493.88

SALLY5/C5

523.25

FRANK5/C#5/Db5

554.37

BILL5/D5

587.33

SUSAN5/D#5/Eb5

622.25

CAROLE5/E5

659.26

MIKE5/F5

698.46

LISA5/F#5/Gb5

739.99

EBENEEZER5/G5

783.99

LINDA5/G#5/Ab5

830.61

DAVE/A5

880.00

RONDA5/A#5/Bb5

932.33

HOLLY5/B5

987.77

SALLY6/C6

1046.50

FRANK6/C#6/Db6

1108.73

BILL6/D6

1174.66

SUSAN6/D#6/Eb6

1244.51

CAROLE6/E6

1318.51

MIKE6/F6

1396.91

LISA6/F#6/Gb6

1479.98

EBENEEZER6/G6

1567.98

LINDA6/G#6/Ab6

1661.22

DAVE6/A6

1760.00

RONDA6/A#6/Bb6

1864.66

HOLLY5/B6

1975.53

SALLY7/C7

2093.00

FRANK7/C#7/Db7

2217.46

BILL7/D7

2349.32

SUSAN7/D#7/Eb7

2489.02

CAROLE7/E7

2637.02

MIKE7/F7

2793.83

LISA7/F#7/Gb7

2959.96

EBENEEZER7/G7

3135.96

LINDA7/G#7/Ab7

3322.44

DAVE7/A7

3520.00

RONDA7/A#/Bb7

3729.31

HOLLY7/B7

3951.07

SALLY8/C8

4186.01

FRANK8/C#8/Db8

4434.92

BILL8/D8

4698.64

SUSAN8/D#8/Eb8

4978.03

Now we have a 7 octaves of chromatic scales.
So, to answer the second question:
"but the real question is when played as a second inversion, what key is it in and what scale tone 7th chord does it become?"

IS:

Given the formula for a HALF DIMISHED chord is: 1 b3 b5 b7 based on its OWN Diatonic scale. Since the (1) is "A"(DAVE), build a Diatonic scale in the key of DAVE.

Which means, based on the formula for a Diatonic scale in intervalsW= Whole tone/1/2=Half Tone)

W W 1/2 W W W 1/2

In the Key of A gives the following notes:

1 2 3 4 5 6 7

A B C# D E F# G#

OR

DAVE, HOLLY, FRANK, BILL, CAROLE, LISA, and LINDA

Now, flat the 3rd, 5th and 7th, and you get the following tones, which make up a HALF DIMINISHED or Min7b5 chord.

DAVE, SALLY, SUSAN and EBENEEZER.

Now, given that scale tone Chords are built from the formulas as follows:

1=MAJ7 1 3 5 7 Intervals(MAJ3rd,Min3rd, MAJ3rd)
2=MAJ7 1 3 5 7 Intervals(MAJ3rd,Min3rd, MAJ3rd)
3=Min7 1 b3 5 b7 Intervals(Min3rd, MAJ3rd, Min3rd)
4=MAJ7 1 3 5 7 Intervals(MAJ3rd,Min3rd, MAJ3rd)
5=Dom7 1 3 5 b7 Intervals(MAJ3rd,Min3rd, Min3rd)
6=Min7 1 b3 5 b7 Intervals(Min3rd, MAJ3rd, Min3rd)
7=HalfDim. 1 b3 b5 b7 Intervals(Min3rd, Min3rd,MAJ3rd)

then it follows that a HALF DIMISHED is built on the 7th tone of a Diatonic Scale. BTW, these are called CHORD QUALITIES.

Therefore, what Key does an "A"(DAVE) Half Dimished Chord belong to? Working backwards.
1/2 W W W 1/2 W W
7. A(DAVE)
6. G#/Ab(LINDA)
5. F#/Gb(LISA)
4. D#/Eb(SUSAN)
3. D(BILL)
2. C(SALLY)
1. A#/Bb(RONDA)

VOILA! An "A"or DAVE Half Diminshed chord is the 7th scale tone chord in the key of A#/Bb, or the KEY of RONDA!

Now, invert the chord

b3 b5 b7 1 which gives you the same tones in another scale tone 7th chord in ANOTHER KEY. But what chord and what Key?

Since the interval distance from a 1 to a b3 is a min 3rd, and the distance from a b3 to a b5 is a MAJ 3rd, and the distance from a b5 to a b7 is a MAJ 3rd, it would seem that when inverted, the intervals might match one of the other scale tone chords...maybe?

Apply a little CHORD ANALYSIS. Use the same tones against another Scale tone 7th Chord QUALITY.
Since we can eliminate a Half Diminished since its already been defined,
lets try a Major. IF, the same tones, A, C, Eb, G(ie-DAVE, SALLY, SUSAN and EBENEEZER.) were applied to a MAJ chord, they would be

1?
3=A(DAVE)
5=C
7=Eb oooops....the interval distance from a 5th to a 7th is a maj third. From C to Eb is a minor third....it doesn't work.. besides, where does the G note fit in?

Next, try a Min. chord

1?
b3=A
5=C ....hmmm, oooops....the interval distance from a b3rd to a 5th is a maj third. From A to C is a minor third....it doesn't work..besides, where does the G note fit in?
b7=Eb

Well, lets try a dominant

1?
3=A
5=C
b7=Eb

Since a Dominant chord has the following intervals...MAJ3rd, Min3rd, MAJ3rd, and from A to C is a Min3rd, and from C to Eb is a MAJ3rd, we are half way there. However, where does that FUCKING "G" note fit? Well, lets see. If 1 to 3 is a MAJ3rd, then from what note to "A" is a MAJ3rd? LOOK at the diatonic scale formula.

W W 1/2 W W W 1/2


Well, lets see. If "A"(DAVE) is the 3rd tone, and its two WHOLE STEPS from 1, working backwards, the second note in the scale would be a WHOLE STEP backwards, or ...VOILA! the "G" tone, or EBENEEZER! Now, working backwards again, one WHOLE STEP...VOILA! The 1 becomes...yup, you got it....."F". But where does the "G" fit in????

Well, count up from 1 through TWO Octaves and this is what you have

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 1 9 10 11 12 13 1 or

F G A A#/Bb C D E F G A A#/Bb C D....E and F

If you count up to the 9th note, what do you have? Yup...."G"

Now lets look at that Dominant formula again.

1
3
5
b7

Now add the 9th and you have a Dominant 9th chord

1=F(Mike)
3=A(Dave)
5=C(Sally)
b7=Eb(SUSAN)
9=G(EBENEEZER)

And there you have it. An "A" Half Diminished Chord is the same as a second inversion of an F dom9th Chord....and since Dominant Chords are the Fifth Scale tone Chord in a Diatonic Scale, and F is the 5th of Bb, it is in the Key of....VOILA!! A#/Bb OR the Key of RONDA.

Have a nice day.
fitZ

[Lt. Bob]

Originally Posted by DrewPeterson7

Actually [drew puts on his pedantic smarty-pants hat] in western theory any three notes played simultaneously, a triad, is a chord. Two notes at a time, a diad, aren't generally considered chords in the system of tertiary harmony. [drew takes off his pendantic smarty-pants hat]

Boobies.

beat me to it ..............







boobies.