Acoustic buying advice needed

[JimH]

I'm a keyboard player looking to buy an acoustic guitar (no pickup). I used to play one about 18 years ago when I had in my possession a Guild for a year or two. But I've not owned one since.

I know very little about guitars. I could use some advice on what to look and listen for when shopping. I figure I'll have to spend at least $500 to get something decent, and I guess I'd go up to $1000 if it meant that anything less just sucks. Specific model recommendations would be great. One thing I think I know is that the back of better guitars is made of more than one piece. But I don't know anything about the wood.

I don't remember there being any Takemines or Taylors years ago. There were Guilds and Martins and Epiphones and no-name brands. Martin was the cream of the crop and they were expensive, so nobody I knew had one. But now you can get a Martin for $500-600 new. Has Martin gone downhill? Or have they simply added more affordable (and compromised) models? The other day I tried a Martin DM (?) that was about $550. It was easy to play and sounded OK. For comparison I picked up a $3000 Martin. It was harder to play but felt more…mmmm…I don’t know…fluid? But to my ears the actual sound was not THAT different. It must be that I've been away from it for too long to not hear much difference, or else I'm not listening for the right thing.

Also, I'd like to get an electric at some point (which I know ABSOLUTELY nothing about). But that can wait for another post.

Thanks for any help,

Jim

[drstawl]

In the $5 bills for new arena, check out the Epiphone EJ-200. Awesome flat top. But you've already hit on the two things to "look" for in a guitar. Sound and playability.

[Even]

I have to agree that dollar for dollar the Epiphones are a good machine. Unlike many sister companies (Martin makes sigma and so on) Epiphone is quality stuff.
Woods to peek for: spruce top for resonation.
Mahogony or maple back and sides for reflection.
And unless you are a small dude I would steer you from mid or thin guitars. They almost always lack depth and tone. They are cozy for a small dude and tend to have sweet electronics to plug in. If you are going to be acoustic 100% get a full body.
Be sure to get an ebony fretboard too.. not a finished stained one.
Lets see, Takamines and Ovations suck under $1000. But are very nice if you go over that. Martin is not what it was, but still sweet. But I think dollar for dollar a seagul will blow them away.
I adore the Alvarez tone, even in the thin ones. Sheesh I don't know. I guess it really does come down to what plays and feels and sounds like to you. But thats about all I can offer.

[mastahnke]

I would recomend something made in Canada. You can get a guitar made the same way as the Americans that are really expensive, only cheaper cause they are from North of the border. Simon & Patrick is very nice, all hand made and great sounding. I don't remember their website, but I own their Rosewood Pro and love it! Their are also Seaguls, one of their acoustic guitars has been the top selling guitar in the world for the last 4 years. Seaguls are great. Also, check out Art and Luthier (Sp??) They are very good. Those are all made by Godin Inc. But they are all very good. Check em out and you won't be disappointed...they are better than the Epiphones and such.

MIKE

[c7sus]

Seagull blows away a Martin dollar for dollar? You can't be serious! Have you been listening to too many Hootie and Garth records and think that is what a flat-top steel string is supposed to sound like?

For best results, look for rosewood bodies, solid spruce tops, ebony fingerboards, and good quality Schaller tuners. IMHO the new Martins are every bit as nice as any made in the last 30 years. The difference is that today they are more consistant in the quality. Save some bread and look for a nice used D28-HD (for herringbone) with an adjustable truss-rod. These are built on the same design as pre-WWII dreadnaughts with hand-carved scalloped top braces and the "X" moved toward the soundhole about 1". With the money you save buying a very good used instrument have it set up by a good luthier. Factory fresh Martins are notorious for high action. If you take care of it you should always be able to get back out of it what you paid.

[Even]

I have heard one whole Hootie album so that can't be it. Maybe it was the sealed soundroom I was in and the price tags side by side that left me able to say Dollar for dollar. The phrase dollar for dollar suggests that what you get versus what you pay is superior. Similar to the phrase pound for pound. Yes Martins make very nice guitars. And I sure did not want to hurt anyones Martin playing feelings. But oddly is it remotely possible to get a very good piece of equiptment from other companies for the buck.

[Buck62]

I would have to agree that Seagull guitars are as good as you can get for the money. They play and sound superb and won't drain your bank account.
Larrivee is another nice guitar from the Great White North, but it's a bit more expensive.
Another option is to get a Godin Acousticaster... and you get the best of both worlds.... acoustic AND electric. I got one, and believe me... it's incredible.
My personal favorites are old Yamaha acoustics (which I own) but if I were to buy a new acoustic, Seagull or Larrivee would be tops on the list. The Canadians make great acoustics and great beer.

Ahhhhh.... Molson

[tdukex]

Larrivee' makes outstanding guitars. And they have models that you can buy for as little as $599 (D-O2). And Larrivee' uses solid woods on all of their guitars. I think Martin uses laminates on the back and sides of their lower end models. You can also get a very nice Taylor for under a grand (Models 310 and 410, I think).

Ebony fingerboards are standard on most of these brands. Rosewood is not better than mahogany or maple. It's just different. Rosewood is popular for its balanced sound, rich bass, and clear treble. Mahogany is light and strong and acoustically bright and clear. Maple is known for producing strong midrange and bright treble. Spruce is the most popular top becuase of its bright sound and good projection, but cedar is also a fine tonal wood that adds a warm, sensitive, mature sound. The most important thing here is to make sure the top is solid wood, no laminates.

Every guitar maker mentioned so far on this thread makes fine guitars. You can't go wrong with any of them as long as the guitar feels good in your hands, is easy to play, and sounds good.

[Supersonic]

Just about all the acoustic axes mentioned are great sounding and playing and most of them are great value for the money. My only advice is that you don't buy an acoustic brand new and you don't buy one with electronics(pick up and equalization) in it. I've tried out so many good brandname acoustics in music stores and they usually are never set up properly. They often have crappy strings and fret buzzing or action problems. In my experience, used acoustics always play and sound way better than when they come off the rack in a guitar shop. Secondly, if you avoid buying an acoustic with built in electronics, dollar for dollar you will be getting a way better axe because the several hundred dollars that's built into the acoustic price for electronics will show up with better features elsewhere like tuners, quality dressed frets, general sound quality and playability. So my advice would be to check out a buy and sell paper with a musical instrument section and to check out some music stores that specialize in selling used acoustics. There is always a huge supply of great used acoustics going in and out of the stores that I regularly visit and the turnover seems pretty high. One final thing, after you score your acoustic make sure you experiment with different string gauges. This is the final factor that can determine whether your axe will play and sound great. The incorrect string gauge can screw up a great axe, not to mention making it difficult to play. Oh yah, and with the US./CDN dollar exchange rate so much in your favour, you may find great value in buying one of those great Canadian axes used. Then, you can buy a two-four of Molson Canadian or Moosehead Beer with all the coin you've saved. Take-off ehhhhh!

[This message has been edited by Supersonic (edited 04-02-2000).]

[Emeric]

I don't know, I bought my acoustic new (guild, USA), no problems (except for the big crack down the front which was my fault. Gets dry up here). The thing is, like any guitar you have to get it set up by a pro. Especially acoustics, so factor in another $70 or so to get a good setup.

Guild makes some good guitars, I think their owned by fender now though so I would avoid them.

[lazyboy]

I would crawl ten miles on broken glass for the Guild jumbo at my local music store!
I certainly can't afford it.

[foo]

There's some really good advice here, some of it seemingly contradictory - so ...

Rule 1 - Buy used (better value)
Rule 2 - Buy from a reputable dealer (as you have almost no experience, you need the security that gives you)
Rule 3 - Buy a well-known name (including Martin, Larrivee, Yamaha, Taylor, Guild, Epiphone, Gibson, etc.)
Rule 4 - Get a solid wood top - major preference/regular usage is spruce. (Cedar is okay too for classical/new agey specialty usage)
Rule 5 - Get a solid rosewood body (mahogany and maple are also great choices, but rosewood is the most common)

Rule 6 - Take an experienced acoustic guitar player with you so you can really listen

Rules 7 through 100 - If it plays good, and sounds good to you, buy it!

PS My preference is for North American continent made instruments, but see Rule 37, above.

foo

[c7sus]

Preferring a Seagull to a Martin doesn't hurt my feelings-only my ears!

Other qualities to look for are tight, consistent grain across the top and "silk". Years ago Both Martin and Gibson had minimum specs for the amount of growth rings per inch. I believe it was 18/in. minimum. Silk is a visual thing, any experienced acoustic player can point it out to you. Hold the instrument top at an angle and you should see small waves or "boxes" across the top. This is indicative of well-quarter sawn wood, and is preferable to find in any top wood. Also check very closely at the fit and finish of any instrument you fancy purchasing, and in used instruments be sure there are no cracks in the top, sides or back. Finish checking is a different matter. Shit happens. Checking may affect the cosmetics of the instrument but shouldn't affect the tone or playability. But do try to avoid refinished instruments, especially in higher-end guitars. This can definately affect resale value later. Also check the neck for warping! I recently was looking at a couple used electrics and was really disappointed to see warped necks that could have been easily remedied by the store tech if he had only bothered to. But I'll be damned if I would buy any instrument in that condition.

Good luck!

[JimH]

Wow, thanks for all the great advice. I'll keep it all in mind when I'm shopping. Seems like acoustics are like mics---everybody has their favorite.

Normally, I always buy things new. I never like to take a chance on something used. You never know what hidden defect it has. But I guess acoustic guitars might be a different story. So I'll look at used ones, too. There's a pretty good store around here called the Starving Musician that has lots of used stuff.

At first quick look, it seemed that ebony fretboards are only on the more expensive guitars. Not that I couldn't afford a more expensive guitar, but I can't really justify it. I will buy a name brand for sure. I'm not sure I'll be able to tell the different woods on the used guitars, though. But it seems they are all made out of the woods foo mentioned anyway. I think I at least recognize the cheaper laminate stuff. It looks more like plastic wood than real wood.

As for sound, you obviously want a guitar that sounds good. I guess I was hoping people would point out some specific elements that make a good guitar sound. But maybe that's hard to do in writing; I guess you gotta be there. I may have trouble hearing the difference between guitars right now, but I'll bet 6 months after I've been playing it I'll be able to go into a store and hear the difference between mine and the others.

I wouldn't have thought about having a guitar it set up buy someone. Maybe I should. I'm not familiar with what they do, though. Adjust the neck? And what else? And how I wonder how expensive a guitar has to be before it's worth it. I wonder if they laugh at you for bringing in a measly $600 to get worked on. Heh-heh

BTW, Molsen gold used to be my favorite. But these days I have to stick to Amstel Light. :-)

Jim

[Treeline]

JimH:

Ready for a long one? Pop an Amstel Light and sit back.

There's a lot of good advice on this thread, but it may get overwhelming. Start the process by thinking about what you want to do with the guitar, what kind of music you will be playing, whether you have a steep learning curve or are already accomplished, and whether the music will be played in privacy, a small unamplified setting, a studio or on a stage.

Do you have eclectic musical tastes? Rock / Blues? Bluegrass rhythm? Delta blues? Folk / fingerstyle? Classical?

Playing in a band? Expecting to encounter a microphone in the forseeable future with this thing? Need to be loud, or will this be back porch strumming with friends?

It makes a big difference how the instrument will be used. For instance, I have a Taylor jumbo 6-string. Pretty fancy, an 815. I live for this instrument, but it WILL throw a tantrum if you get next to a mic with it. Just too resonant, too bassy, too uncontrollable. But in a quieter environment, it rings out and is alive! Same thing can be said for D-size instruments (dreadnaughts), slightly smaller than the jumbo. They excel in acoustic rhythm where all the instruments fight with each other. But they are holy terrors to control onstage or with high stage volumes because they start getting twitchy. That's where onboard electronics can save your bacon. Some have notch filters - specialized EQ - built in so you can dial in the overload frequency and cut THAT, while leaving the rest alone. Better gain before feedback.

Sounds like you are looking at an entry level "real" guitar, sort of one step up from entry, and I'm assuming from your posts that you want something for all occasions, if possible. That pegs you in my opinion at about a thousand dollars, give or take a hundred. Better to get that much together and do this once, than to spend five hundred and start learning about laminated tops. You can also find excellent buys in the $ 850 range, so don't despair about the budget too much. The extra increment becomes something that is attainable.

The best all around instrument will be a compromise - not the thumping bass of a D-18, and in this price range, probably not the highs of a rosewood box. But I was amazed when I did a survey of medium size (grand auditorium, for want of a better term) instruments. They are generally thought of as "fingerstyle" but are versatile enough for nearly anything. There are some incredible guitars out there; much, much better than anything available twenty years ago!

For this purchase, I would buy new. Simple reason is that you have a warranty, but no experience. As you get experience, you will find that one guitar won't do it any more; the day will come when you have three. Buy those used if you like, but play it safe the first time out.

You should not settle for anything less than a solid wood guitar. Laminates just don't belong at this price point; they are fine in an entry level instrument. You're shooting for one step up. Solid woods or no sale.

Look for mid range size with a spruce top (Usually Sitka spruce, an excellent material) and Honduras or African mahogany sides and back. Although I love rosewood and lust after curly maple, I firmly believe that the mahoganies are underrated as tonewoods. They really rock. And you have to budget; focus on performance and not on exotic materials. Mahogany neck, rosewood or similar fretboard (many rosewood substitutes are now on the market and seem to be fine), and high quality tuning machines, meaning either Grover, Schaller or Gotoh. Be careful with noname look alikes. They may be fine, but a set of Schallers cost a manufacturer twenty five bucks; no excuse to use anything less on a nine hundred dollar instrument. Don't get open tuners in this price range. Good quality open tuners are pretty expensive, and the others will become sloppy with use.

Look at the general fit and finish, particularly the subtlety of the finish. It's an old manufacturer's trick to glop on the finish like it's going on a bar top. Looks great but is a mark of a price leader guitar. If they cut corners here, then they will have elsewhere, too. Low end Epiphones are right in this category; look great, sound OK, get you into an instrument, but just will not compete with the next level of quality.

That's not a slam, either; Epis make this stuff available to a market who would end up with trouble otherwise. I want the Joe Pass Emperor; I just wish they used half the amount of finish on the damn thing.

My point is that you can get more, much more - than the $500. Korean import will give you.

Look inside the guitar. It should be as impressive as the exterior. Clean, no glue, no splinters, especially around the electronics, if they are on the unit. You'd be amazed at some of the stuff I've seen in an otherwise decent guitar - electronic switching installed with a broadaxe.

Look at the binding, around the corners, and the mitres (corners), if the fingerboard is bound. Straight? "Fixed?" Stay away from adjustable saddles - They belong on electrics. Their presence on an acoustic is a sign of manufacturing expediency.

Now play it, and bring along someone with experience to listen to it and play it, too. Smooth and comfortable neck? Frets feel good, particularly at the edges? (NOTHING sharp?) How is the balance of the guitar, both physicllay and musically? Neck heavy? How does it fit your body? Some find a large guitar sounds nice but is simply uncomfortable to play. You will be spending lots of time with this thing; be sure it's comfortable.

Sometimes the strings are shot on a showroom guitar; it's been hanging there six months, played, etc. Don't be afraid to ask them to put on a new set of strings if you're serious about the purchase and have narrowed it down to a couple. And when you take it home, do yourself a favor. Don't skimp on strings.

Brands: I love Taylors and think that the company has nailed the high quality / affordable price range compromise down cold. They are stunning guitars for the price.

But you've heard of some other brands in this thread; all good ones! I agree that the best value at this price point will be in Canadian and U.S. made instruments. A strong contender is Alvarez. Look closely at Tacomas, which seem to be leading the pack on aggressive pricing. All solid woods and superb quality for under a grand. Look at (and play!) Larrivees. They have their own bracing and body styles, which helps to give them their voice. Beautiful workmanship. Don't forget Guild, who had some horrible years in bankruptcy court during the early '90s, but is coming back like gangbusters ever since the Fender purchase. They are making better guitars now than they ever have, and there is one small fingerstyle cutaway, mahogany sides & back, $850, that keeps calling me. Fender is giving them space to do what they do well.

Martins are wonderful, but they (like Gibson) come into their own at a higher price point. Their offerings at the under $1000 market are interesting, but just don't get me the way their traditional lines do.

And if the budget won't squeak a grand, look )very closely) at the Canadian La Si Do instruments. They make the Seagull and the Simon and Patrick brands. All solid woods, minimal appointments, wide waists (easier to build, sound OK, look a little different) and prices well under a grand!

Twenty years ago, your choice would be Martin, Gibson, Guild and the Yamaha / Takamine / Aria etc. crowd. Not an original idea to be found.

The good news is that today, EVERYONE in this business is building much better than they used to, and the chance of getting a beautiful instrument is running about 97%. The bad news is. . . well, there is no bad news.

[Even]

'bout all I can say about that last post... Bravo!

[heupel]

I agree with treeline about the alverez guitars. They offer a wide variety of models with a wide variety in price.

[Buck62]

One good thing about old, solid wood top acoustics.... they seem to sound better with age. My 22 year old Yamaha FG335 just keeps getting sweeter as time marches on.
But those Seagull's and Larivee's are great guitars for the money. I'd have one in the collection if I wasn't so broke from mastering and duplication costs.
At least I can still afford beer.
Take off, ay!

[Boots]

You might want to consider a solid top. It's not laminated and a solid top will sound much better with age. Most acoustic guitars have solid tops but you'll find some that do not. Just a heads up.

Washburn makes some really nice acoustic guitars.

I recommend playing as many acoustics as you can - in order to get a feel of a certain guitar. A good playing guitar for me might not be a good playing guitar for you. It depends on the person. Make sure it's comfortable.

[Cliff]

Well this topic has been pretty well covered but it is one that sits close to my heart so I'm gonna throw in my $0.02. Since you said you were looking for something without a pickup it's kind of a moot point but for the money you can't beat the versatility that a Takamine provides. They sound great both plugged in or not. Unless of course you hate the piezo sound which c7sus obviously does since both Darius (Hootie) and Garth play Tak's on stage. I have no idea what they record with though. The main point I wanted to bring up is that you shouldn't rule out a guitar that isn't completely solid wood. I've compared quite a few Martin D-1's to D-28's and in most cases I have preferred the sound and playability of the D-28 but not so much that I would pay the extra $1000 for it. The D-1 has a solid top and back but the sides are laminated. The one thing that everyone failed to mention is that laminated wood is a lot stronger than solid wood. For the increase in strength and the small difference in sound, I think laminated sides could be considered an asset, especially if you are going to be gigging with the guitar. As you can probably tell, I am a fan of the D-1 but I also like the Taylor 410 a lot. The important thing is to play everything that you can and buy what sounds best that fits your budget. Things I would look for in terms of sound are clarity of sound in the low, mid, high ranges. Strum open chords like a G and listen for clarity as opposed to a jumbled sound. Check the intonation on the guitar. An easy way to do this is to take a well tuned guitar and play a string on the 17th fret (16th for the 3rd string) along with the string below it open. It should sound as close as it does on the 5th fret. Check this by slightly bending the string to see if that makes things worse or better (should make it worse). Intonation can be corrected but there is no reason for it not to be right when it leaves the store. Other than that, make sure the guitar has enough volume for you and you should be all set.

[Treeline]

Good point about laminated sides; they certainly are stronger and more stable than solid wood. And some high end luthiers use laminated sides. I have a blueprint by Scott Antes in 1986 showing a 1966 Jose Ramirez classical with sides laminated of Rosewood (1.5mm) and Cypress (1.0 mm). That's not an entry level guitar by anybody's measure, nor is the Martin D-1.

My warning about laminations is that at this price point, you may be tempted to seek false "savings" represented by a laminated guitar; it can be hard to tell the difference until they are played. Again, this isn't intended to be elitest; it's about what you should be able to get when you lay down 900 or a thousand bucks.

So if you find a solid top instrument with laminated sides, that excels in sound, playability, fit and finish, and feels good -you may have found just the compromise you need. Just stay away from a laminated top, or else decide that you will choose a lower price point and be willing to compromise on the sound to get there.

Nothing wrong with doing that, by the way; just make it a conscious and informed choice and avoid dropping five hundred by inadvertance. My first dreadnaught was an Alvarez-Yairi, with all laminated woods and handcarved bracing! It was a classic dreadnaught - a beautiful thing. It was within my budget, which meant that I had a dreadnaught instead of not having one - a big difference - and I used it constantly for about two years. It really sounded great.

But one day I played it next to a fellow who had a D-18. We all knew which one was the Martin.

[JimH]

Just wanted to tack on another thanks to Treeline and everyone else for the great information. I have some ammunition to go shopping with now.

Jim

[JimH]

Checking back in for the next chapter in the saga...I've been doing some shopping. I haven't decided yet but so far I'm leaning toward the Taylor 410, even though it's at the upper end of what I'm willing to spend. At first I wanted to stick with Martin, but the 410 really sings! I mean the sound really carries. I can see what people say about the sparkle. The sound at the 17th fret was good, too. And the difference between Taylors and Martins is very big. By comparison, Martins sound duller. Buts that not a fair word to use. They have a more intimate and "woody" kind of sound. I hope that my untrained ear is not missing something and that I'm not being fooled by the brightness of the 410. Maybe the complexity of tone is not there. If a Martin is a fine wine, is the Taylor a wine cooler? I loved the ebony fretboard, even though I thought the Taylor was a little *less* easy on the fingers. I'm not partial to the satin finish; I'd prefer gloss.

I can see that one guitar is not going to be enough. I would want the Taylor for that bright strummin' acoustic sound you might hear in an REO Speedwagon song. But I also want the intimate Martin sound for doing Don McLean and Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young stuff. If I get the 410, I can see myself also going out and getting a Martin D-1 or D-16 in a year or so just to get that sound.

Strangely, to my ears all the Martins sounded rather similar, from the lowest priced up to the HD-28 ( I think around $1500?). I also compared a Taylor 310 with the 410. The 410 has a bigger, more open sound. But some of that may have been the strings. I found a big difference between old and new strings, making it pretty much impossible to assess the sound of some guitars. I know people have suggested other brands besides these two. It's not that I've tried them and ruled them out. In some cases they're just not available in the stores near me. Perhaps I'm just biased to certain names.

One thing I'm concerned about is the price. The store that has the 410 tends to have higher prices on most things. They want $1149 for the 410. I think it would probably be cheaper at Guitar Center. However, even though GC has several Taylors, they do NOT carry the 410. They told me the 414 (Grand Auditorium) was a bigger seller. Anyway, I wonder if $1149 is a fair price.

Jim

[Treeline]

You're doin' it right, pal. And you're finding out that there are a whole lot of different paths to excellence. Don't be swayed by mere brand loyalty; I just lost it on another thread because of a foodfight that erupted there over that stuff. AACK!

Martin? Taylor? How can you lose? Not a matter of "fine wine" v. "wine cooler" at all. One is like an Australian Cabernet / Shiraz, the other like a Spanish Rioja. Either one is really good with a rare steak.

P.S. See what I mean about the string thing? Keep us posted!

[tdukex]

JimH: $1149 for a Taylor 410 is too much, unless it's a Cutaway with Fishman electronics. If you want a Taylor, I recommend buying it from Buffalo Bros. vintage Guitars www.buffalobrosguitars.com. Bob sells the standard Taylor 410 for $895 new.

I have dealt with Bob for 15 years, and would recommend him to anyone wanting to purchase a good-great acoustic. He also sells used instruments. He and his only sales person, Gary Wolod, are acoustic guitar experts, and they are honest. They also have a luthier/restoration expert named Bill Meyer (semi-famous for his JackStraw 12-strings). Bill is an authorized repair agent for Martin, Santa Cruz, Larrivee, Ehlers, among others.

Buffalo Bros. offers a 3-day "Right of Refusal" on all guitars, so you will not get stuck with something you don't want. Shipping runs about $50, but you won't have to pay any sales tax because they're in California.

Buffalo Bros. also offers 100% lifetime guarantee on used instruments and 100% trade-in value for all instruments (provided they are in basically the same condition with normal wear). I have exercised this option my self. It allows you to gradually move up to nicer guitars.

Do yourself a favor and at least check out the website. By the way, I am in no way affiliated with or related to Buffalo Bros.

Tom Duke