Will TRS cables work like TS cables?
- Thread starter Tusin
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Blue Bear Sound
New member
The balanced cable will work, but depending on the gear you're connecting to, you generally get a 6db signal loss by connecting balanced lines to unbalanced gear.
Bruce
Bruce
Blue Bear Sound
New member
Yes... think about it... the balanced line is carrying half the signal on one side and the polarity-inverted signal on the other, plus the ground... if the polarity-inverted signal is thrown away (due to plugging-in a the balanced connector to a jack that is unbalanced), then you will experience a 6 db loss of signal strength....
You can't get something for nothing -- to unbalance a balanced signal with no signal level loss, you'd need to use a transformer (which, if it's cheap, can then color or degrade the sound!)
Welcome to the world of interfacing pro and semi-pro gear!
Bruce
You can't get something for nothing -- to unbalance a balanced signal with no signal level loss, you'd need to use a transformer (which, if it's cheap, can then color or degrade the sound!)
Welcome to the world of interfacing pro and semi-pro gear!
Bruce
Blue Bear Sound
New member
Of course, using TS cable may not change anything... it's not the cable as much as it all depends on how the gear you want to interconnect handles unbalancing a balanced signal!
Bruce
Bruce
Ok just found out somthing about the BlueMax, it says it is TRS unbalanced, so I should get TRS cables then? lol
TRS unbalanced? That doesn't make sense unless it has an insert or something.
Basically, TRS isn't going to make a negative difference for most things. It's the gear. If you are connecting unbalanced to unbalanced, TRS is fine, you just won't be using the "R" section of the plug. Like Bruce said it will make a difference if you are connecting balanced to unbalanced. But the unbalanced gear doesn't "care" if you are using balanced cable. I would just get TRS cables in bulk instead of buying half TRS/Half TS you'll need more TRS eventually anyway. Just make sure you don't use TRS for hooking up any guitar effects boxes or active guitars, they have to have TS.
Ian
Basically, TRS isn't going to make a negative difference for most things. It's the gear. If you are connecting unbalanced to unbalanced, TRS is fine, you just won't be using the "R" section of the plug. Like Bruce said it will make a difference if you are connecting balanced to unbalanced. But the unbalanced gear doesn't "care" if you are using balanced cable. I would just get TRS cables in bulk instead of buying half TRS/Half TS you'll need more TRS eventually anyway. Just make sure you don't use TRS for hooking up any guitar effects boxes or active guitars, they have to have TS.
Ian
lol, Yeh I know TRS balanced doesnt make craps sence to me either. It even has a +4 switch on the comp too, so I am really confused with the Comp. Here is the Cut-Sheet
http://www.presonus.com/content/pdfs/cutsheets/bluemax_cutsheet.pdf
And the Manual
http://www.presonus.com/content/pdfs/manuals/bluemax_manual.pdf
http://www.presonus.com/content/pdfs/cutsheets/bluemax_cutsheet.pdf
And the Manual
http://www.presonus.com/content/pdfs/manuals/bluemax_manual.pdf
PodcastHelper
New member
So will using a TS cable into a TRS jack also result in the loss of 6db or any db loss for that matter? Thanks
Guitargodgt
New member
If you know how all the cables are wired up it's easier to understand what's up:
Instrument cable: It looks a lot like cable coax for tv. You have a braid that goes around 1 insulated wire. The braid is the shield and is connected to the sleeve and the wire up the center is connected to the tip. There are cases where the tip is a twisted pair of wires, but the sleeve on an instrument cable is always many smaller braided together wires that wrap around the center wire(s).
XLR/TRS: A twisted pair that connects to pins 2 and 3 or the tip and the ring. The sleeve is the same as an instrument cable, small braided wires that wrap around the insulated twisted pair in the center. In the case of quad cable you have to twisted pairs that each connect to pins 2 and 3. The twisted pair was developed by the phone company (correct me if I'm wrong on the history) to keep signals from interfering with the signal carries. The braided shield is added protection on top of this.
Speaker cable TS: Speaker cable has no shielding. It's 1 twisted pair split to both the tip and the sleeve. This is why using it as a guitar cable can produce unwanted noise and signal interference.
I'd provide pics of some of the cables I have soldered up but I always heat shrink the connections so there isn't much to see anymore.
In most situations I keep my cable balanced, especially if one end is a balanced connection.
Instrument cable: It looks a lot like cable coax for tv. You have a braid that goes around 1 insulated wire. The braid is the shield and is connected to the sleeve and the wire up the center is connected to the tip. There are cases where the tip is a twisted pair of wires, but the sleeve on an instrument cable is always many smaller braided together wires that wrap around the center wire(s).
XLR/TRS: A twisted pair that connects to pins 2 and 3 or the tip and the ring. The sleeve is the same as an instrument cable, small braided wires that wrap around the insulated twisted pair in the center. In the case of quad cable you have to twisted pairs that each connect to pins 2 and 3. The twisted pair was developed by the phone company (correct me if I'm wrong on the history) to keep signals from interfering with the signal carries. The braided shield is added protection on top of this.
Speaker cable TS: Speaker cable has no shielding. It's 1 twisted pair split to both the tip and the sleeve. This is why using it as a guitar cable can produce unwanted noise and signal interference.
I'd provide pics of some of the cables I have soldered up but I always heat shrink the connections so there isn't much to see anymore.
In most situations I keep my cable balanced, especially if one end is a balanced connection.
Please clear this up, someone. Bruce's first answer is confusing and appears to be in error?
:Using TRS cables to connect unbalanced gear creates no issue whatsoever. (T/F?)
Also--then it would be helpful to know exactly what the consequences are of using TS cables to connect balanced gear. I would think the only issue would be noise, as what would effectively happen is the cable would pick up noise, with no change in overall signal level. ie the signal-to-noise ratio would be negatively affected. (T/F?)
(Scurries off to do some googlin'. . .)
sjjohnston
New member
The only situation I can think of where it would really make sense to have "TRS unbalanced" connection is if it's stereo. If people are using language kind of loosely, I suppose it might refer to an "impedance balanced" output, which isn't really a balanced output in the narrow sense of the word, though some people call it that, and it does use a TRS jack.
There's a bit of confusion in this thread. If you're connecting two boxes and:
- They both have TS jacks (i.e. both are unbalanced), it makes no difference whatsoever whether you use a TS or a TRS cable. The ring contact on the cable plugs won't connect to anything at either end. This, I think, is the question in the original post.
- The output box has a balanced output on a TRS jack, and the input box has an unbalanced TS jack:
* If you use a TS cable, you connect one side of the output (the "cold" signal, on the ring contact) to ground, which is generally what you want to do.
* If you use a TRS cable, you leave the cold output signal "floating" (attached to nothing), which is preferable for some particular items (which items should note that in their manuals).
- The output box has an unbalanced output on a TS jack, and the input box has a balanced TRS jack:
* If you use a TS cable, you connect the cold input to ground right at the input box's jack.
* If you use a TRS cable, you connect the cold input to ground at the far end of the cable (at the output box's jack), which is perhaps mildly preferable, though not a big deal.
- The output box and the input box both have balanced TRS jacks:
* If you use a TS cable, you connect the cold output to ground, which you don't want to do. What you want to do - since you've got an input box that wants a balanced signal - is connect the cold output to the cold input. By not doing so, you give up your common-mode noise rejection, as well as 6 dB of level that you otherwise would've had
* If you use a TRS cable, you do the right thing.
There's a bit of confusion in this thread. If you're connecting two boxes and:
- They both have TS jacks (i.e. both are unbalanced), it makes no difference whatsoever whether you use a TS or a TRS cable. The ring contact on the cable plugs won't connect to anything at either end. This, I think, is the question in the original post.
- The output box has a balanced output on a TRS jack, and the input box has an unbalanced TS jack:
* If you use a TS cable, you connect one side of the output (the "cold" signal, on the ring contact) to ground, which is generally what you want to do.
* If you use a TRS cable, you leave the cold output signal "floating" (attached to nothing), which is preferable for some particular items (which items should note that in their manuals).
- The output box has an unbalanced output on a TS jack, and the input box has a balanced TRS jack:
* If you use a TS cable, you connect the cold input to ground right at the input box's jack.
* If you use a TRS cable, you connect the cold input to ground at the far end of the cable (at the output box's jack), which is perhaps mildly preferable, though not a big deal.
- The output box and the input box both have balanced TRS jacks:
* If you use a TS cable, you connect the cold output to ground, which you don't want to do. What you want to do - since you've got an input box that wants a balanced signal - is connect the cold output to the cold input. By not doing so, you give up your common-mode noise rejection, as well as 6 dB of level that you otherwise would've had
* If you use a TRS cable, you do the right thing.
sjjohnston
New member
Summary (assuming TRS jacks are balanced, not stereo out- or inputs):
Output box -> Input box
TS -> TS: cable doesn't matter
TRS -> TS: use a TS cable unless the manual tells you otherwise
TS -> TRS: TRS may be better, but it's not a big deal
TRS -> TRS: use a TRS cable
Output box -> Input box
TS -> TS: cable doesn't matter
TRS -> TS: use a TS cable unless the manual tells you otherwise
TS -> TRS: TRS may be better, but it's not a big deal
TRS -> TRS: use a TRS cable
I like it! Thanks!!
TRS - > TS: appears to be due to whether or not the extra circuit is left open or is left grounded, so the manual should clear that up for sure.
I found a wikipedia article that seems to explain the headroom issue. It appears there are situations where 6 db of gain is possible, though it is probably more like 3 db. I definitely learned something there. Thanks Bruce, and wiki!
Balanced audio - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
PRHunt
I void warranties
If you look on the Jensen web site, there's a paper by Bill Whitlock about balanced lines. It is quite trivial and cheap to convert practically any unbalanced gear to be true impedance balanced. Basically involves 2 resistors and an appropriate (eg TRS or XLR) connector.
Paul
Paul
Bobbsy
Boring Old Git
A bit of caution here. They USUALLY work but it can depend a bit on the connectors used. I've seen a few sockets where the sleeve connector is placed in such a way that it can short across the ring and cause problems.
Not often--and I have some TRS connectors made up as TS that I've been using for years. But just once or twice I've had the problem noted above (and, when it happened, it was a real head scratcher at the time).
Bob
Not often--and I have some TRS connectors made up as TS that I've been using for years. But just once or twice I've had the problem noted above (and, when it happened, it was a real head scratcher at the time).
Bob