Would switching from a hypercardioid shotgun to a cardioid pencil mic help reduce room reverb/noise?

[paleblue]

I have a Sennheiser MKH600 hypercardioid shotgut that I've started recording a new youtube channel with. It's fine for the outdoor music recording I got it for, and it seems to be a well regarded mic. I'm editing my first video and am not all that pleased with my sound. It's my first time, so I'm just calling it a learning experience and moving on, but I want to get better.

My room is largely untreated so that's definitely the source, I'm working on that. But I've been watching people talk about pencil mics and I'm looking at the sE8 to possibly replace the MKH600. My thinking is the hypercardioid has a sizable rear lobe that could be picking up a lot of room noise. A cardioid has no rear lobe, and although it does have a wider front lobe I have curtains in those directions which I'm hoping will help.

Questions: Would the cardioid pattern and shorter barrel help cut any reflections/reverb from behind the mic? Is a decent pencil mic like the sE8 going to have as good sound as the MKH600?

Extra info if it helps:
I'm shooting/mic'd into a corner, and I sit about 8ft in front of the actual corner. But there's a large rest-of-the-room on the other side, a double office setup. Half wood panel walls, half brick. Smooth ceiling, wood floor except a rug under the area I'm filming in. But filled up with a lot of computer equipment and decor so it's not *quite* as reflective as it sounds. It needs a lot of work. I'm planning on hanging acoustic blankets to the sides and rear of the filming area, some foam panels in the corner, and probably a ceiling panel.

 

[rob aylestone]

Think of the shotgun as a bright torch. The cardioid is more like a dim floodlight. Most forward, but a bit of spill leaks out backwards and the sides. There is a sort of old story that says you don't use shotguns inside, but the problem is that you need to shine the torch on your mouth. The snag being that it picks up what bounces off the wall behind too. The cardioid isn't as bright but if you're closer, you're still lit OK?

Seriously though - shotguns in hard surfaced rooms need careful postioning and aiming to minimise what is behind you, and they MUST be aimed at your mouth. Shotguns can be further away, cardioids need using closer. Corners are also bad. Especialy 90 degree ones!

SE8's are fine mics, but you might hate the sound of those unless you bring them in close. Condensers are brighter and harder than dynamics too, so my advice might be to keep the shotgun for outside and try a dynamic indoors? Maybe borrow one before you buy? The real solution of course is to fix the acoustics.

This video lets you hear how different shotguns work differently if you're interested in shotguns indoors.

 

[paleblue]

Thanks you! Good analogy. I've heard the adage about don't use shotgun indoors. It's about the sides picking up reflections and coloring the audio, right? I'm using a dynamic (Rode Procaster) for voiceover recording, but condenser for on-camera recording.

Are there 'cages' of foam/insulation/etc that can wrap around the sides and back of a shotgun to help with this?

I have pretty good freedom with getting the mic nice and close, fortunately! And I've already purchased some moving blankets to get started on treatment!

 

[Papanate]

My thinking is the hypercardioid has a sizable rear lobe that could be picking up a lot of room noise. A cardioid has no rear lobe, and although it does have a wider front lobe I have curtains in those directions which I'm hoping will help.

It is the opposite - Hypercardiod has no rear lobe - cardiod has a small rear lobe -doesn't pick up a lot.

Questions: Would the cardioid pattern and shorter barrel help cut any reflections/reverb from behind the mic? Is a decent pencil mic like the sE8 going to have as good sound as the MKH600?

The Sennheiser MKH600 hypercardioid is a fine mic for what you what it is - what is you source for the recording?

Extra info if it helps:

I'm shooting/mic'd into a corner, and I sit about 8ft in front of the actual corner. But there's a large rest-of-the-room on the other side, a double office setup. Half wood panel walls, half brick. Smooth ceiling, wood floor except a rug under the area I'm filming in. But filled up with a lot of computer equipment and decor so it's not *quite* as reflective as it sounds. It needs a lot of work. I'm planning on hanging acoustic blankets to the sides and rear of the filming area, some foam panels in the corner, and probably a ceiling panel.

Honestly the hyoercardiod won't pickup anything behind - you better off damping what's behind you.

 

[unaufadox]

I have a Sennheiser MKH600 hypercardioid shotgut that I've started recording a new youtube channel with. It's fine for the outdoor music recording I got it for, and it seems to be a well regarded mic. I'm editing my first video and am not all that pleased with my sound. It's my first time, so I'm just calling it a learning experience and moving on, but I want to get better.

My room is largely untreated so that's definitely the source, I'm working on that. But I've been watching people talk about pencil mics and I'm looking at the sE8 to possibly replace the MKH600. My thinking is the hypercardioid has a sizable rear lobe that could be picking up a lot of room noise. A cardioid has no rear lobe, and although it does have a wider front lobe I have curtains in those directions which I'm hoping will help.

Questions: Would the cardioid pattern and shorter barrel help cut any reflections/reverb from behind the mic? Is a decent pencil mic like the sE8 going to have as good sound as the MKH600?

Extra info if it helps:
I'm shooting/mic'd into a corner, and I sit about 8ft in front of the actual corner. But there's a large rest-of-the-room on the other side, a double office setup. Half wood panel walls, half brick. Smooth ceiling, wood floor except a rug under the area I'm filming in. But filled up with a lot of computer equipment and decor so it's not *quite* as reflective as it sounds. It needs a lot of work. I'm planning on hanging acoustic blankets to the sides and rear of the filming area, some foam panels in the corner, and probably a ceiling panel.

I used a Rhodes NT2 (not the Nt2a) mic on this recording. You can see the room is quite large, and I have high-ish ceilings. Floor is floor boards and untreated. Other than that huge piece of material behind me, there is no other treatment on the walls themselves, just some bass traps in the corners. It still needs some work. I get flutter echo when I clap but for these recordings I am very happy with the results. There is no compression on this though...the mic is a condenser with a cardioid polar pattern

 

[RRuskin]

A corner is not a good place from which to be recorded, especially an untreated one. FYI - The corners are the 1st places I work on when trying to tame a room.

 

[bouldersoundguy]

If you have to keep the mic out of the shot, you're pretty well screwed. Your best bet for keeping the room out of the mic is to use a handheld "ball" type live performance mic and stay right on the grille. What works to keep drums and amps out will work to keep your room sound out. Geometry (inverse square law) is the dominant factor, polar pattern is secondary.

 

[rob aylestone]

I got a lot of questions about shotguns, especially when I did another video in the office. If there is a reflective surface right behind the person speaking, its component is too much. The mic just hears the wall. If the wall is double the distance, then the inverse square law gets its component down. The upshot of all this is that shotguns need empty space behind the subject. If you cannot do this in a small room, typically, then they are just a bad choice. The stuff people have mentioned about side and rear lobes is important, because you need to consider what is in that space. Cardioids in my studio space had a damn fan in the lobe, and I just had to move the recorder, as I couldn’t move the mic. I like my old college analogy to a light source with leaks. I used it because there was a well known British lighting company who invented a new light. What came out the lease was lovely, but the theatre people rejected it because on small stages, light leaked out of the sides and back, and you could see it on the scenery and floor. Oddly, the TV people loved it, because in their bigger spaces, those leaks didn’t matter, you had nothing for the leaks to land on. I treat those light leaks like the side lobes of a mic. It helps me imagine what the mics do. The follow spot being the shotgun, and the dangling lightbulb the OmnI. Add a lamp shade and you get a cardioid, with the little leak on the ceiling.

 

[Steenamaroo]

Is your content dialog or music?
Most of the dialog heavy guys I'm seeing these days are using Rode (no h no s) lapel mics.
Those working in a corner or confined space, like repair guys at a workbench for example, usually put some kind of decorative dense adhesive pads on the wall behind them to help tame high end reflection.

If the microphone simply must not be visible then a shotgun probably is the best of the bunch for the job but I'd work on keeping the distance as small as possible,
and you probably will have to get in to treating the room if the sound isn't satisfactory.

Maybe share the video you're not happy with? That might help a bit.

 

[rob aylestone]

While I wait for windows, I've grabbed a few mics and recorded me in the office. Window behind me, hard walls, lots of reflections from screens, walls, racks and shelving. I started with a dynamic cardioid - an SM57, then swapped to a cardioid condenser - an SM86, then a hypercardioid dynamic - the Beyer M201, a very popular radio studio interview mic in BBC studios, and then a shotgun = an AKG C451 with the CK8 shotgun capsule. The front of the mic was exactly 40cm from my mouth and the window behind me is 1.3m away.

Looking at the mics, the rear of every one is pointing to a noise source - the uncased PC with fans, reinstalling Windows, and it is quite noisy. All I did was normalise all of them to the same level. The differences are not massive really.

 

[paleblue]

It is the opposite - Hypercardiod has no rear lobe - cardiod has a small rear lobe -doesn't pick up a lot.

The Sennheiser MKH600 hypercardioid is a fine mic for what you what it is - what is you source for the recording?


Honestly the hyoercardiod won't pickup anything behind - you better off damping what's behind you.

It's entirely likely that I am mistaken on either the terminology and/or how to read these pattern charts.


I've been happy with the MKH600 for outdoor use. This is my first experience recording indoors and first experience recording dialog. My content (at least as far as this mic setup is concerned) is talking-head shots.

One of my first treatment steps is hanging moving blankets behind and around my camera and filming area. I'm hoping that will do the trick!

 

[paleblue]

I used a Rhodes NT2 (not the Nt2a) mic on this recording. You can see the room is quite large, and I have high-ish ceilings. Floor is floor boards and untreated. Other than that huge piece of material behind me, there is no other treatment on the walls themselves, just some bass traps in the corners. It still needs some work. I get flutter echo when I clap but for these recordings I am very happy with the results. There is no compression on this though...the mic is a condenser with a cardioid polar pattern

When you set this up did you try comparing audio with and without the material behind you? I'm curious how much such a simple treatment helps. I understand there's a law-of-diminishing-returns here, and it's next to pointless to cover *everything*, but is there a recommended percentage?

 

[paleblue]

A corner is not a good place from which to be recorded, especially an untreated one. FYI - The corners are the 1st places I work on when trying to tame a room.

I wish I had some flexibility with location! For the time being ... this is it. It's the only way I can get the backdrop more than 3-4 ft behind me.

Would it help if I moved my mic position? I'm pointed right at my mouth but the corner is directly behind my head. If I move the mic off-axis so that it's pointed (still at my mouth but at an angle) toward a flat wall, would that be more like recording on a flat wall?

 

[paleblue]

While I wait for windows, I've grabbed a few mics and recorded me in the office. Window behind me, hard walls, lots of reflections from screens, walls, racks and shelving. I started with a dynamic cardioid - an SM57, then swapped to a cardioid condenser - an SM86, then a hypercardioid dynamic - the Beyer M201, a very popular radio studio interview mic in BBC studios, and then a shotgun = an AKG C451 with the CK8 shotgun capsule. The front of the mic was exactly 40cm from my mouth and the window behind me is 1.3m away.

Looking at the mics, the rear of every one is pointing to a noise source - the uncased PC with fans, reinstalling Windows, and it is quite noisy. All I did was normalise all of them to the same level. The differences are not massive really.

Excellent examples, thank you much! I can definitely heard the bg noise come up with the SM86 and then more so with the M201, but then back down with the CK8 capsule.

I was surprised the dynamic hypercardioid picked up more noise than the condenser cardioid. While the cardioid > hypercardioid (in terms of noise pickup) supports my hypothesis, I thought that dynamic > condenser would have more than made up for that!

Your voice had a lot more reverb (colored tone? I'm still learning terminology) with the CK8 though. (to my untrained ears at least)

 

[paleblue]

Is your content dialog or music?
Most of the dialog heavy guys I'm seeing these days are using Rode (no h no s) lapel mics.
Those working in a corner or confined space, like repair guys at a workbench for example, usually put some kind of decorative dense adhesive pads on the wall behind them to help tame high end reflection.

If the microphone simply must not be visible then a shotgun probably is the best of the bunch for the job but I'd work on keeping the distance as small as possible,
and you probably will have to get in to treating the room if the sound isn't satisfactory.

Maybe share the video you're not happy with? That might help a bit.

I'm still editing for now, but I'll try posting some sample audio -- it's all dialog. I would guess that my mic is roughly 40-50cm from my mouth. I do have a Rode lav mic set that I haven't tried yet, I bought for upcoming plans for outdoor walk-around shots. I'll have to see how that goes too...

 

[paleblue]

there was a well known British lighting company who invented a new light. What came out the lease was lovely, but the theatre people rejected it because on small stages, light leaked out of the sides and back, and you could see it on the scenery and floor. Oddly, the TV people loved it, because in their bigger spaces, those leaks didn’t matter, you had nothing for the leaks to land on. I treat those light leaks like the side lobes of a mic

Excellent analogy, as the subject of my content is photography. One of my planned episodes is about adapting enlarger lenses for macro photography. One of the problems is that many enlarger lenses had an window for the light to illuminate the aperture setting. This wasn't a problem when the light was being produced behind the lens! But when you use it for a photograph, suddenly that window is a light leak right next to the sensor.

 

[paleblue]

If you have to keep the mic out of the shot, you're pretty well screwed. Your best bet for keeping the room out of the mic is to use a handheld "ball" type live performance mic and stay right on the grille. What works to keep drums and amps out will work to keep your room sound out. Geometry (inverse square law) is the dominant factor, polar pattern is secondary.

This is why I wrote the episode so that the majority of dialog was voiceover -- which means I can use my Rode Procaster right in front of my mouth. My problem was ... this sounded so good, it made me aware of how bad the shotgun mic sounded!

 

[Papanate]

It's entirely likely that I am mistaken on either the terminology and/or how to read these pattern charts.
View attachment 134321

The pickup pattern of a supercardiod from my experience is quite different than the picture - and the Cardiod is bigger in my experience -

I've been happy with the MKH600 for outdoor use. This is my first experience recording indoors and first experience recording dialog. My content (at least as far as this mic setup is concerned) is talking-head shots.

One of my first treatment steps is hanging moving blankets behind and around my camera and filming area. I'm hoping that will do the trick!

The Damping behind the microphone is a good idea - let. us know how it turns out.

 

[bouldersoundguy]

Polar patterns for all directional mics vary with frequency. They trend toward omnidirectional at lower frequencies.

 

[rob aylestone]

I think the best advice is the thing you mentioned, hang some blankets or duvets. We know they are ineffective at LF but the noises causing grief here are managed very well by soft stuff.

my video studio was never intended for recording audio, but I’m a lazy devil. I hung some black drapes for one project. Then the next one needed green screen, I hung them over the top. The. Instead of putting those back in the flight case, I pulled out another set of blacks, hoping to get the creases out by hanging. It was then I realised that now the video space sounded so much better for voice. Three layers of hung cotton fabric do a really good job. Until I did it, my assumption was it would not be this good!