Led Zeppelin now in court over Stairway

Greg_L said:
Cool. So I'll just write new words and melody over famous riffs and progressions. It's all good! Maybe I'll use Stairway to Heaven as a bed for something better. I like Led Zeppelin, but I hate that song, so there's no fandom here. :)
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I was actually in the shower earlier thinking myself through a punk song with the chord progression and elements of the melody from Stairway
 
Greg_L said:
I wouldn't care if it was a copyright infringement. I'll infringe day and night if I feel like it. Stealing stolen property from thieves is a victim-less crime. :D

But hold up. So how is a riff any different than a chord progression? How is Stairway to Heaven just a generic chord progression that anyone can use, apparently, but a "riff" is "signature" and therefore untouchable?

.......

There's too much gray area and loopholes in this shit.
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No there aren't really any "loopholes"...but there are times when an interpretations/ruling needs to be made.
The Library of Congress and performing rights organizations have all agreed on what can be copyrighted and what can't...based on music theory and what it takes for a *song* to be a *song* VS what are pieces of chords (and even notes to a degree) that constitute generic music that has no complete *song* structure, and therefor can't be copyrighted and/or CAN be reused.


Greg_L said:
It's just chords, but those are signature identifiable simple progressions that make you know what those songs are.
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I know we've all seen/heard this before...but it again demonstrates that you can write a thousand songs that have *similarities* (some very close similarities) but are in fact individual songs and no one is suing anyone over it.



That's 73 songs...all the EXACT same chord progression...some even have "similar" melodies that run the entire lengths of the songs, but not enough to constitute copyright infringement. There's some formula...it has to be X number of notes for a certain length of time...etc....or something like that.

1 . Journey – “Don’t Stop Believin’”
2. James Blunt – “You’re Beautiful”
3. Black Eyed Peas – “Where Is the Love”
4. Alphaville – “Forever Young”
5. Jason Mraz – “I’m Yours”
6. Train – “Hey, Soul Sister”
7. The Calling – “Wherever You Will Go”
8. Elton John – “Can You Feel The Love Tonight” (from The Lion King)
9. Akon – “Don’t Matter”
10. John Denver – “Take Me Home, Country Roads”
11. Lady Gaga – “Paparazzi”
12. U2 – “With Or Without You”
13. The Last Goodnight – “Pictures of You”
14. Maroon Five – “She Will Be Loved”
15. The Beatles – “Let It Be”
16. Bob Marley – “No Woman No Cry”
17. Marcy Playground – “Sex and Candy”
18. Men At Work – “Down Under”
19. Jill Colucci – “The Funny Things You Do” (Theme from America’s Funniest Home Videos)
20. Jack Johnson – “Taylor”
21. Spice Girls – “2 Become 1”
22. a-ha – “Take On Me”
23. Green Day – “When I Come Around”
24. Eagle Eye Cherry – “Save Tonight”
25. Toto – “Africa”
26. Beyoncé – “If I Were A Boy”
27. Kelly Clarkson – “Behind These Hazel Eyes”
28. Jason DeRulo – “In My Head”
29. The Smashing Pumpkins – “Bullet With Butterfly Wings”
30. Joan Osborne – ” One of Us”
31. Avril Lavigne – “Complicated”
32. The Offspring – “Self Esteem”
33. The Offspring – “You’re Gonna Go Far, Kid”
34. Akon – “Beautiful”
35. Timbaland featuring OneRepublic – “Apologize”
36. Eminem featuring Rihanna – “Love the Way You Lie”
37. Bon Jovi – “It’s My Life”
38. Lady Gaga – “Poker Face”
39. Aqua – “Barbie Girl”
40. Red Hot Chili Peppers – “Otherside”
41. The Gregory Brothers – “Double Rainbow Song”
42. MGMT – “Kids”
43. Andrea Bocelli – “Time To Say Goodbye”
44. Robert Burns – “Auld Lang Syne”
45. Five for Fighting – “Superman”
46. The Axis of Awesome – “Birdplane”
47. Missy Higgins – “Scar”
48. Alex Lloyd – “Amazing”
49. Richard Marx – “Right Here Waiting”
50. Adele – “Someone Like You
51. Christina Perri – “Jar of Hearts”
52. Crowded House – “Fall At Your Feet”
53. Red Hot Chili Peppers – “Under the Bridge”
54. Daryl Braithwaite – “The Horses”
55. Pink – “U + Ur Hand”
56. The Fray – “You Found Me”
57. 3OH!3 – “Don’t Trust Me”
58. Tim Minchin – “Canvas Bags”
59. Blink-182 – “Dammit”
60. Kasey Chambers – “Not Pretty Enough”
61. Alicia Keys – “No One”
62. Amiel – “Lovesong”
63. Bush – “Glycerine”
64. Thirsty Merc – “20 Good Reasons”
65. Lighthouse Family – “High”
66. Red Hot Chili Peppers – “Soul to Squeeze”
67. Banjo Patterson – “Waltzing Matilda”
68. Bic Runga – “Sway”
69. Ben Lee – “Cigarettes Will Kill You”
70. Michael Jackson – “Man in the Mirror”
71. Mika – “Happy Ending”
72. The Cranberries – ” Zombie”
73. Natalie Imbruglia – “Torn”

....and nd then here's some more using the same basic chord progression to at least start off...and then they might drift into something else....which is what you have with "Stairway to Heaven", and that's what makes it a different song from "Taurus", and why there is no real copyright infringement, IMO.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_songs_containing_the_I–V–vi–IV_progression
 
miroslav said:
No there aren't really any "loopholes"...but there are times when an interpretations/ruling needs to be made.
The Library of Congress and performing rights organizations have all agreed on what can be copyrighted and what can't...based on music theory and what it takes for a *song* to be a *song* VS what are pieces of chords (and even notes to a degree) that constitute generic music that has no complete *song* structure, and therefor can't be copyrighted and/or CAN be reused.
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So if you or I wrote a song using the exact same picking and progression as House of the Rising Sun, you think that's fair play? It's not a riff or a melody. It's just arpeggio chords, but it's easily identifiable as House of the Rising Sun. Forget the Library of Congress and their formulaic laws. Let's talk common sense. Jimmy Page was aware of this Taurus song and he stole a piece of it. He didn't steal the whole song, but he stole an integral section of the Taurus song and made it an integral section of Stairway. He's not just strumming four open chords that can have any melody laid over the top of it. He took it almost exactly from Taurus.
 
Greg_L said:
So if you or I wrote a song using the exact same picking and progression as House of the Rising Sun, you think that's fair play? It's not a riff or a melody. It's just arpeggio chords, but it's easily identifiable as House of the Rising Sun. Forget the Library of Congress and their formulaic laws. Let's talk common sense. Jimmy Page was aware of this Taurus song and he stole a piece of it. He didn't steal the whole song, but he stole an integral section of the Taurus song and made it an integral section of Stairway. He's not just strumming four open chords that can have any melody laid over the top of it. He took it almost exactly from Taurus.
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So you're saying that NO ONE can ever use the same chords as House of the Rising Sun with that arpeggio strum...???

Hate to bubble burst... but the now "iconic" version that the Animals did is by no means "THE" copyrighted song that can't be done any other way. It's been done a lot of different ways.

A Brief History of "House of the Rising Sun" | American Blues Scene Magazine


Taurus and Stairway to Heaven have chord similarities, but they don't follow through the same.
Taurus has NO melody on top of those three chords...they are just three strummed chords, that come up twice in the song.
Those chords don't come in until 45 seconds into the song...they are not the opening to the song....they come up again at about 1:38...and both times, they move to a different set of chords by the 4th chord and go in a totally different direction....
...than Stairway to Heaven.

So...you want to now cherry pick 3 chords from within the song...with no melody on top of them...with no similarities to how those three chords resolve...with absolutely no other identifiable elements that are the same in Stairway to Heaven...and based on that, cry "copyright infringement"...?

Like I said earlier...everyone should just start suing everyone and claim their chord progressions as their own original ideas...
...though all the classical composers would probably roll over in their graves at the whole thing. :D
 
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Would be amusing if some distant descendent of Mozart sued a distant descendent of Beethoven.
 
miroslav said:
So you're saying that NO ONE can ever use the same chords as House of the Rising Sun with that arpeggio strum...???
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Yeah, sort of, that is what I'm saying. It's too iconic. I concede that by the letter of the stupid law, you or I can maybe blatantly rip that shit off and use it as our own. I think that's pathetic. But speaking creatively or artistically, you don't think it's super fucking lame to rip that shit off? You don't think it's lame that Jimmy Page blatantly stole a piece of some nobody's song?

To say that those 4 chords in Taurus are not the same as Stairway is disingenuous. You're moving the goalposts all over the place. Who cares when or how the chords come into the song? They're there. I'm sorry, but they are the same. Anyone with functioning ears can hear both songs and immediately tell that they are damn near exactly the same for that one passage. They pick the same, they progress the same, they just don't end the same. 90% of that section is exactly the same.

If it were just pure dumb coincidence, then fine. But it isn't. Jimmy Page lifted that piece of music from Taurus.

At this point I truly don't care who wins or loses. I never did. I'd just like to hear one Zep fan not hide behind fandom.
 
Greg_L said:
I'm sorry, but they are the same. Anyone with functioning ears can hear both songs and immediately tell that they are damn near exactly the same for that one passage.
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Three chords. :)

So then, what about the 73 + songs I listed earlier.
I mean, there are whole song similarities with them that go WAY beyond just the 3 chords found in "Taurus" and "Stairway to Heaven".

I think you, like so many others, are going by "it reminds me of" and then using that as definitive proof of song theft.
Sure, the three chords in "Taurus" remind me of the same three chords" in "Stairway to Heaven"...but the songs are NOT the same for the greater part, than those brief three chords.
It doesn't matter where Page got them from..."Stairway to Heaven" as a whole, is a completely different song....and THAT'S what copyright is about...not three chords that remind you of another song....again, like the 73+ songs I listed earlier.
 
miroslav said:
Three chords. :)

So then, what about the 73 + songs I listed earlier.
I mean, there are whole song similarities with them that go WAY beyond just the 3 chords found in "Taurus" and "Stairway to Heaven".

I think you, like so many others, are going by "it reminds me of" and then using that as definitive proof of song theft.
Sure, the three chords in "Taurus" remind me of the same three chords" in "Stairway to Heaven"...but the songs are NOT the same for the greater part, than those brief three chords.
It doesn't matter where Page got them from..."Stairway to Heaven" as a whole, is a completely different song....and THAT'S what copyright is about...not three chords that remind you of another song....again, like the 73+ songs I listed earlier.
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I'm not saying "it reminds me of". My ears work. I can write and arrange my own songs. I have enough musical skill to hear things. What I don't have is a pair of prescription rose colored glasses. The difference between those 73 songs over a generic open chord progression and what Page stole for Stairway is all in the picking and changes. Again, House of the Rising Sun. It's just a few chords. Played open, it just sounds like chords. Lay any melody over the top and carry on. Fine. But when you pick them that certain way, it's House of the Rising Sun. Same with jimistone's Sweet Home Alabama. Three simple chords, picked a certain way, make it Sweet Home Alabama. That's what Page did. Had he done something unique with that simple passage, then nothing would be in question. But he lifted it exactly! The only difference is that he got away with it for decades because no one fucking knows that Taurus song. If you or I stole House of the Rising Sun, we'd be immediately crucified. Even if we could do it legally, we'd be ridiculed and lose respect if we even have any.

So that's the secret. Steal obscure shit that no one knows, make your money, and worry about it later. Credit to Jimmy Page for having the foresight to do it that way.
 
Yeah but again..."The House of the Rising Sun" is a traditional folk song...not an Animals song with the chord opening you are talking about. So they actually took an old folk song, and made money off it...and again, the chord progression is fair game.

And yes...there is a cutoff with copyright....so you can talk real old shit and do it up, and you will not be sued.
 
I can see what Greg is getting at - its the Animals picking pattern that makes it unique... could you copyright it? I have no idea.

Is it a bit lame to lift a short passage and pass it off as your own? Yes. Could you claim theft of IP for it, seems unlikely. I still like Led Zep though.
 
miroslav said:
Yeah but again..."The House of the Rising Sun" is a traditional folk song...not an Animals song with the chord opening you are talking about. So they actually took an old folk song, and made money off it...and again, the chord progression is fair game.

And yes...there is a cutoff with copyright....so you can talk real old shit and do it up, and you will not be sued.
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You would have to totally rework House of the Rising Sun to make it your own. If you go near The Animals or Dylan's version, or anyone's version, they can come after you. That's how traditional songs work. And those are the only versions that matter at this point.

Okay so Rising Sun is off the table. What about Sweet Home Alabama?
 
JDOD said:
I can see what Greg is getting at - its the Animals picking pattern that makes it unique...
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That's what makes it what it is. Even without any vocals, or even a melodic line of any kind, you know it's House of the Rising Sun just by the way those chords are picked in that progression. To steal that is super lame, and I don't think it should be allowed by law.
 
JDOD said:
I can see what Greg is getting at - its the Animals picking pattern that makes it unique... could you copyright it? I have no idea.
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Yes, you can copyright a "sound recording"...but for someone to steal it, again, it would have to be interpreted, because when you start slicing things down to a few notes or a couple of chords...you have to prove that no one else ever, on the planet has made those same sounds before you.
That's why a simple chord arpeggio sequence doesn't, in my mind, constitute *originality*.

JDOD said:
Is it a bit lame to lift a short passage and pass it off as your own? Yes. Could you claim theft of IP for it, seems unlikely. I still like Led Zep though.
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Well...it may or may not be "lame".
EVERYONE at one point or another gets some ideas from someone's song that they hear.
You hear a set of chords...or maybe a cool lick that you then switch out a couple of notes to turn it around...etc.

That's not "lame"...that's how music is made, because if you want to slice it up into tiny little pieces...then every song was already written a couple of hundred years ago by the classical composers....since they've used all the chords and all the notes.

In many ways...it can just as easily be viewed as paying homage by taking an influence and then altering it to a degree to where it's your own original song.
What's wrong these days is that people want to cry foul over the smallest details because of....$$$....and they figure, WTF....I might as well sue, and see if I can get anything out of it, which is exactly what this Stairway to Heaven lawsuit is about.
The estate executor and the sister of the author, almost 20 years after the author's death, probably needed the money, so why not sue LZ and see what they can get.
It's got little to nothing to do with establishing the songwriter credits. If LZ didn't make much money off of STH...the lawsuit wouldn't even exist.
 
If I get time to sort the drums out tomorrow night I'm gonna do a punk version of HOTRS this weekend... Which reminds me, I need to buy that pop filter.
 
But Page didn't rearrange or get an idea from that Taurus piece like he did with all the other stuff he stole. It's pretty much note-for-note during the passage in question. I never paid much attention to all the other stuff he stole because, like you said, that's how music is made. You hear something you like, you re-imagine it, re-work it, etc, you make it your own, or try to anyway. But a blatant note-for-note rip off is pretty lame.
 
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