Doubling Guitars

C

Chaos351

New member
Hi, I'm new here and am no pro of mixing or anything. I'm currently recording a cover of Ozzy Osbourne's "Mr. Crowley" and as I usually do when recording, I double the guitar parts. (Always something I've done, I like the way it sounds in stereo)

The problem I'm having is when I listen to it in mono. The guitars become almost completely washed out. If I listen to it in stereo though, I think it sounds pretty decent. What I'd like to do is have it sound good in both stereo AND mono.

Is there a way to get the parts to not sound like they're phasing when listened to in mono? The only two things I can think of to fix this would be either manually moving each note (Which is something I'd like to not do) or buying Vocalign and seeing if that does the trick for me (Which I'd also like to not do, as it's too expensive for me). Would moving the mic position a little when recording help this? I used different guitars for both parts, I figured maybe their different tonalities would help.

It's not finished, but you can listen to what I've uploaded here: https://soundcloud.com/shaun-clupper/mr-crowley


Thanks for all the help!
 
I'll probably get a lot of flak for saying this...but I give very few sh*ts about mono when I mix. 95% of your listeners are listening to an .mp3 through earbuds. The rest have Beats by Dre. Checking in mono has some benefits (like checking for phase). But if it sounds good in stereo, it's probably good.
I don't hear any issues with the Soundcloud link. I'd say keep on keepin' on!
 
I cant listen at the moment, but that is a common thing. It essentially means that the guitar performances are really tight, which is good.

No matter what you do, the guitar sound will change in mono. If you get something like vocalign (and it works on guitar, which I doubt), all it will do is further line up the performances, which will colapse the stereo image.

Bottom line is, this is just what happens and there isn't much you can do about it after the fact. But, on the bright side, there aren't that many situations where it will actually be summed to mono. Most of the times people are essentially listening in mono, the sound is still coming from two speakers, it's just that the listener isn't standing between them. In that case, the cancellation you are hearing will not occur.
 
Try sweet EQing the two guitar parts. i.e. boost 650 and 5k on one guitar by 3dB or so, cut on the other equal amounts. Now boost 400 and 3500 on the other guitar and cut on the first. The numbers are arbitrary (give a listen and move the boost up and down to find nice sweet spots). But not only will this help the mono mix a bit, but it will actually sound like the two guitars are MORE stereo split.
 
Using different guitars, different amps, different EQs, mic positions, etc will all help. You can pitch shift one of the parts by -9 cents ish. Some of this stuff you've done. In the end, you've got such a damn tight performance that it just may thin out in mono. Unfortunately that's just part of the game. Nice performance.
 
I've had this happen. You know what it was for me?

Tuning. The guitars are JUST FREAKING SLIGHTLY out of tune between takes, and that causes it to phase WAY the fuck out. Tune before each take, or if it's still causing problems, before each section (verse, chorus, etc).

See if that fixes it. I bet it will. I had it happen three times before I finally realized that my guitars sounded shitty on a mono setup because the guys had crappy tuners. Brought the guitarist back in, retracked his guitars IN tune, and they sounded great.

Try that out and come back, I'm curious as to if that's the issue for you.
 
I didn't see it mentioned so I wanted to add..

For me.. changing the mic'd position makes the most impact on exactly what you are struggling with. Pushing the mic back from the amp changes all the sound waves as they arrive to the mic.. completely changing the response of the mic. That is the first thing I would try. Just be careful with room sounds on the pushed back mic. It *can* destroy all of your reverb/delays
 
I mostly leave the mic where it is if I use the same amp/cab, and I'll swap guitars and/or adjust things at the amp and/or switch pickups (neck VS bridge)...or sometimes just use a different amp.

There's probably like 50 ways to skin that cat....you just try a few and find what gives you the most of what you are looking for, and it's usually different from song to song...what works on one may not work on another.
Heck, sometimes it's just how you play....the way you attack the strings on one track VS the other. Your arrangement and playing can provide bigger/better results than anything you will do by just moving things around and turning the knobs...IMO.
 
I think all of the advice has been good, except for the EQing and pitch shifting. Don't do that. Don't go fucking up potentially good takes just to make them "work" in mono. That's asinine.

When you're dealing with high gain stuff, like Ozzy covers, I think it's best to use different amps and/or speakers if you can. Swapping guitars can usually be a good thing for different takes, but really, for Ozzy covers you're probably just using humbucker guitars anyway, right? They all sound pretty similar with the gain way up. Different amps and speakers will have the biggest impact on tonal differences. Speakers have a profound impact on tone, but not many people have the luxury of having many to choose from. Or use different mics and positions. Wait, you are using real amps, right?
 
Greg_L said:
I think all of the advice has been good, except for the EQing and pitch shifting. Don't do that. Don't go fucking up potentially good takes just to make them "work" in mono. That's asinine.
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Pitch shifting by 9cents does nothing to "ruin" a good take. From OU812 forward Eddie Van Halen recorded single takes, then they doubled the track, separated by 30ms, and pitch shifted one guitar by 9 cents. The king of tone himself would not have allowed someone to "fuck up" his tone, especially in his own studio. It's become industry standard treatment for turning a mono guitar into two for stereo separation.

All of these tools are just that: tools. Use the one that works for each particular instance.
 
Maybe you could re-read the original post and find where you went wrong. I'm not spelling this stuff out anymore only to fall on deaf/bad ears.
 
No. If you can't defend your position then you don't have one. I'm not falling for that. You are a heck of a drummer and from what I've heard a great engineer. But you also let opinions fly like they're gospel and guys who don't know better take you at your word. In many cases there is a lot of room for debate in engineering discussions, particularly mixing. Don't state something as fact that is a subjective opinion. I hate Stratocasters. That doesn't make them bad guitars.
 
If you won't take the time to find your own error, then I'm not going to spell it out for you. It's better that people take my word than listen to a bunch of pitch shifting nonsense. It sounds like shit. Believe me, don't believe me, I don't care. I record guitars just fine and they sound fucking awesome without any pitch shifting bullshit. I'm good, thanks.

P.S. - I hate Strats too.
 
Greg_L said:
If you won't take the time to find your own error, then I'm not going to spell it out for you. It's better that people take my word than listen to a bunch of pitch shifting nonsense. It sounds like shit. Believe me, don't believe me, I don't care. I record guitars just fine and they sound fucking awesome without any pitch shifting bullshit. I'm good, thanks.

P.S. - I hate Strats too.
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I get great guitar sounds without pitch shifting too, because I know how to record guitars well. But many don't. And if a mix engineer received the OP song as it is, where the guitars haven't been recorded with different amps or mic positions, then he has EQ, delay, and pitch shift options to handle the separation without washing out in mono. They are corrective tools and they work with varying degrees depending on the specific recording.

PS F*** Strats.
 
Brian Miller said:
I get great guitar sounds without pitch shifting too, because I know how to record guitars well. But many don't. And if a mix engineer received the OP song as it is, where the guitars haven't been recorded with different amps or mic positions, then he has EQ, delay, and pitch shift options to handle the separation without washing out in mono. They are corrective tools and they work with varying degrees depending on the specific recording.

PS F*** Strats.
Click to expand...

That is true. Many people might not even notice or care that their guitars sound like ass after pitch shifting. They'll hear that washy, warbling, artificial, fake "spread" and think it sounds righteous. Whatever floats their boat.

P.S. - I hate Teles too!
 
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