Recording classical music

P

polarity

New member
I have gotten a few jobs lately to record local orchestra and choirs.

The people I'm working with are looking for a very different sound than I am used to. They want to hear the room in the performance hall.

Right now I am trying to record about a 20 piece orchestra and 40 piece choir playing/singing together. Any tips on how to get the best sound possible (they don't want anything close mic'd, they want to hear the room).

Any ideas on how to pick out the best spot in the room for the mics?
 
When I have looked at orchestra recording on like youtube or TV, it looks like the mics are placed around the group at about 20 feet away. My guess would be, as many mics/tracks as possible, I would think same type of mics, above the group like a drum overhead mic and make sure the levels are good, then on mix get the balance. The distance of the mics will get the room.

Just a guess, but would be my approach.
 
I tried a few different things last night. He keeps telling me he wants to hear the room. So I setup a room mic about 25ft back from the stage. I setup 2 condensers in front of the orchestra then 4 sdc behind the brass in front of the choir. I recorded all of that, then I recorded one with just a left/right mic out 25ft from the stage. He likes the ones at 25ft without any other mics. I have to use their gear so I'm trying to learn it as I go. They have a Roland V-Mixer 400i I think it is. From what I can find it only records L/R out (my mixer does 16 channel out) so I feel pretty limited there. They aren't mic'ing the performance at all for the listeners, the mics are only for recording.

It's strange to think that I'm not getting the best sound possible but them saying it's exactly what they want.
 
Ah, be careful on what you think is the best recording. If the rooms sucks, then let him know, otherwise, it might be the best recording, just not what you would get in a studio.
 
use the Decca Tree technique, especially if it's a large space. Mid/Side is also very useful for controlling the amount of room sound, the side becomes the reverb and you can control how much or how little you want in the sound.
 
It's a performance hall, so it's got a great sound to me. The highs are a little bright in the room at certain points but otherwise the room sounds nice.
 
polarity said:
It's a performance hall, so it's got a great sound to me. The highs are a little bright in the room at certain points but otherwise the room sounds nice.
Click to expand...

in that case you could try using omni mics, a spaced pair of omni in an AB setup sounds good.
 
Yeah, I don't completely understand why you think it would sound better in a studio all close miked. If the room is decent, then the sound in the room is exactly what it's supposed to sound like! You can't make it better. All you need to do is capture it without fucking it up. Listen to and appreciate what's happening in the room first, then make sure that what comes off the tape is close to that. If you can't listen to it without thinking how much better it could sound, if you can't appreciate it for what it is, then you just might be the wrong person for the job.
 
ash you could be right there, I'm definitely not arguing there. I'm doing this for friends, we don't have anyone local that records this style of music and they have to get someone from Texas. The client is willing to give me some room to learn in exchange for that so I'm excited to do it. When I listen back to the recordings (we did a couple tests last night) it just sounds more distant than I think it should. Then the louder the brass gets the harder it is to hear the choir behind them.

Listening to the music in that room is a beautiful experience all over the room the sounds swell and build and it's awesome. I would just like to make sure I can recreate that with the audio and currently I don't feel that I am. I was thinking it if was close mic'd I could recreate the room and make it not sound so distant from the mic. When I'm in the room even at the back it doesn't sound distant to me.

I don't own an omni mics but we might need to get some. This college has a budget for gear and I could let them know what to get for the future.
 
I think this is where mic placement is the learning curve. Maybe before you hit record, you can get some test recordings to improve your mic placement.

The distance I still think comes back to compression, etc. But I think your mic placement is going to be your biggest challenge since close micing is not an option.
 
Yeah, I have pretty open access to the space but I don't have the instruments and singers in there so that I can place the mics and listen.

It's a huge learning curve here (or it feels like it anyway), I'm used to recording one or two guys in my house now I'm in a performance hall with equipment I've never seen! All in all though I'm having a blast learning and I've been getting to hear some amazing music. Tonight is the performance though so I'm out of time for practice, I need to nail it tonight.
 
Think of your mics as you would your mix, strong instruments need to be further away than light. Just take what you know and apply it to your mic placements.

Not very helpful, but I think you have enough knowledge about sound to where you just need to apply that knowledge in a different way. Just think it through, I'm sure you will get it close.
 
Listening to the music in that room is a beautiful experience all over the room the sounds swell and build and it's awesome. ..snip

I was thinking it if was close mic'd I could recreate the room and make it not sound so distant from the mic.
When I'm in the room even at the back it doesn't sound distant to me..
Click to expand...
Interesting bit that isn't it. Live' that's our brain's auto pilot focusing in hearing. The mic' can't. Nor can we in playback.

.. When I listen back to the recordings (we did a couple tests last night) it just sounds more distant than I think it should. Then the louder the brass gets the harder it is to hear the choir behind them.
Click to expand...
So this sounds like it could be a good place where 'recordists' trying to find the placement solutions' and the 'conductor or whoever, in charge of the balances- put their heads together. (Same biases' apply (or happen) to the the conductor correct? Perhaps a stereo pair at his/her position, and another back for the room', blend to taste later?
 
I was just reading up on the M/S technique and think I will give that a try. I will get about an hour of play time tonight before the performance so I'm going to do a few more tests.

Thanks for all the tips and help
 
View attachment SONG01.mp3

This is a sample of what I got last night. Nothing has been done to the file except for exporting to mp3. No eq, reverb, comp, etc.

I will happily take any criticism, help, or other info.

Edit: yes I do hear the clicking sound, I am going to have to troubleshoot that tonight. This is all through their gear so I will need to figure out what is doing that
 
What's thw mic set up on that one, and a stereo mix off the Roland I presume?
Sounds a little thick - tilted up 200 and below maybe?
 
As I am just a home hobbist I have very few mics.

Used a TLM 102 and it had an AT2035 that I was moving around to find different spots. Tonight I used the 102 and an audix mic that he had (SDC) and did the M/S setup. I have an AKG C214 (which is much more suited to this type of music) but I loaned it out to a friend and haven't gotten it back yet.

The recording is done, sadly I'm not happy with it at all. We worked as much time as we had trying to get rid of the pop but were unable. I swapped out all the mics, swapped out all the cables. They have something called REAC with that mixer that I'm guessing is the equivalent of a digital snake. The only things I didn't switch out were that and the mixer itself. I tried another card for recording too, and moved the REAC off the stage in case the moving around was causing it.

Last week I brought in my mixer (and mics) and recorded a session with no pops. So something is up with that. They just paid to have this whole setup installed in their room (to the tune of $100k from what I was told). I told him tonight he needed to call them back out.
 
polarity said:
ash you could be right there, I'm definitely not arguing there. I'm doing this for friends, we don't have anyone local that records this style of music and they have to get someone from Texas. The client is willing to give me some room to learn in exchange for that so I'm excited to do it. When I listen back to the recordings (we did a couple tests last night) it just sounds more distant than I think it should. Then the louder the brass gets the harder it is to hear the choir behind them.

Listening to the music in that room is a beautiful experience all over the room the sounds swell and build and it's awesome. I would just like to make sure I can recreate that with the audio and currently I don't feel that I am. I was thinking it if was close mic'd I could recreate the room and make it not sound so distant from the mic. When I'm in the room even at the back it doesn't sound distant to me.

I don't own an omni mics but we might need to get some. This college has a budget for gear and I could let them know what to get for the future.
Click to expand...

I heard the clip and it does sound distant. It also sounds mono, though it may not be, but I don't hear any real stereo separation at all. Where do you have your mics placed? Which mics and how many?

If the brass is overpowering the choir, the conductor needs to address that. It's basically your job to capture what the conductor hears. He sets the level and balance and performance.

I have had the pleasure of recording my kid's middle school band over several different concerts last year. We produced a compilation cd and sold them as a fundraiser and it did very well. At first I used two AKG C4000s that the school owned; a little on the dark side. Then I bought a pair of Shure KSM-137s from Moresound. Huge difference.

One mic stand behind the conductor raised up high over her head. The two 137s on a cross bar in an XY pattern. That's it. The floor is hardwood so it was a little bright; which you noticed on yours. I EQ'd and ran it through a very mild limiter to bump up the volume.

Here's a clip:



Here's a pic of the band during a competition. I didn't record this event, but you can see there are 4 mics set up.

BehindCDWeb.jpg
 
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