Of Tubes and Pres

FartSword

FartSword

New member
Everything I'm discussing here, I'm discussing in the context of voice overs / spoken word, as that's my main use.

I know there's some debate about microphone pre-amps when it comes to tube and solid state pre-amps. Some say the tubes warm up the signal, others say the tubes don't really do anything.

On YouTube I've seen some demonstrations where someone first plugged into their regular pre-amp then turned on and plugged into their tube pre-amp right away and other than a volume difference, the tube pre-amp sounded pretty much the same.

But then I've seen other videos where the people say you need to let the tube pre-amp warm up for about 30 minutes first to get its full benefit. And when they used the tube pre-amp after letting it warm up a while first, it sounded really good.

So, what's the current prevailing wisdom? Are tube pre-amps nothing more than snake oil? Do they make a difference? Or do they only make a difference after they've been warmed up for a while first?
 
The current wisdom is that you need to be careful about which You Tube BS you watch.

There are good and bad preamps.
There are good and bad solid state preamps.
There are good and bad tube preamps.
There are solid state preamps that can sound "warm".
There are tube preamps that can sound "warm".
There are sold state preamps that sound clean.
There are tube preamps that sound clean.

Oh....yes, it's a good a idea to let any tube gear warm up for 30 minutes or so, but it's not going to make a tube preamp sound that much better. It just makes a good tube preamp operate a little better than if its tubes are still cold.

All that said.....for voice overs/spoken word....you probably need to focus more on the mic you choose.
 
the tubes just add character, that's all they do, it adds harmonics into the sound, sometimes it's warmer and sometimes harsher, it's a subtle thing, and it's a matter of personal taste. You have to make sure the tubes are biased properly and running at the correct voltages to get the best sound out of them, even in mic pre-amps, then there's the complexity of each tube/valve has it's own distinctive sound, an NOS JAN/philips valve sounds different to a JJ/Tesla valve, NOS Mullards have thier own amazing sound too, they are my personal favourite for guitar amps because of the midrange, NOS telefunkens are good for hi-fi
 
Another nice thing about solid state is consistency --

Don't get me wrong - I'm all about gear with "character" - But (A) you don't need tubes to have it and (B) there's something nice about turning on a piece of gear and knowing that it's going to sound exactly the same as last time (or six months ago).

And for the record, I let my solid state gear warm up for at least 30 minutes before I rely on it. But otherwise, I avoid tubes like the plague except in few circumstances where the tubes are actually an integral part of the function (a variable-mu compressor for example - and I sold mine not too long ago).
 
Massive Master said:
....I avoid tubes like the plague except in few circumstances....
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Awwwww, c'mon John.....their not THAT bad! :D

Yeah, I certainly can see how for a mastering rig you would lean more toward SS gear for the analog stuff. :thumbs up:

Sure, tubes can perform in a somewhat "organic" way from day to day, and over time...but on the tracking/mixing side, I still like to use tube gear regularly....not to mention all the guitar amps.
I use plenty of SS gear too.

I've seen/heard when tubes start to change dramatically in my amps, so from time to time I need to swap out some of them...but not so much with my tube preamps and comps.
Once I picked out my tube sets for each piece, they've been performing pretty steady now....or at least I haven't noticed anything with those devices like I do when it's time for a guitar amp tube swap, which is often just 1-2 tubes. I don't just by default swap every tube out in a guitar amp on any regular basis like some guys do.

It also pays to keep a large stash of tubes for every type that your gear uses..... :p
 
In general, for a given price point, solid state is better quality. It take much more money to properly implement a good tube design than a similar quality solid state design.

If you tube preamp costs less than $800, it isn't a good one. But for that money, you can get a nice and warm quality solid state preamp. Once you get into the $1000 range, the quality is there in both SS and tube, so it's a matter of personal preference at that point.

If you are talking about budget tube gear, its mostly solid state preamps with a tube, that is not getting the power ut needs to function properly, that gets inserted into the signal chain to add effect. It's not really a tube preamp at all.
 
It sounds like most are saying the tube in inexpensive tube preamps (Art Tube MP, PreSonus Tubepre etc.) just act as an EQ when the signal is passed through them.

Btyre2013 said:
the tubes just add character, that's all they do, it adds harmonics into the sound
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But, if the tubes are also adding some harmonics to the sound, isn't this something that solid state preamps don't really do on their own?
 
FartSword said:
It sounds like most are saying the tube in inexpensive tube preamps (Art Tube MP, PreSonus Tubepre etc.) just act as an EQ when the signal is passed through them.
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Not an EQ as much as a distortion effect


But, if the tubes are also adding some harmonics to the sound, isn't this something that solid state preamps don't really do on their own?
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Higher end SS preamps can do the same thing using transformers.
The thing is, a well implemented tube circuit can be just as clean as a solid state one. So it really isn't about adding harmonics (which is doen by introducing distortion)

unfortunately, there us a lot if hocus pokus surrounding tubes. This has led to a lot of common knowledge misunderstandings of how and why they are different than solid state. Tube preamps are not inherently better than solid state ones. It is unfair to compare the art and presonus tube preamps to full blown tube preamps from manley and the like. they are from two different worlds. same with solid state preamps. It isn't fair to compare a Neve with the preamp in your $50 mackie board.
 
Greg_L said:
Lol. Riiiiiight. It's cool. *wink-wink*
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My question isn't even the same as the thread you linked. It looks like that person was asking about inexpensive preamps in general. I'm asking specifically about how tubes effect the signal in a preamp as compared to solid state preamps.

Farview said:
Not an EQ as much as a distortion effect

unfortunately, there us a lot if hocus pokus surrounding tubes. This has led to a lot of common knowledge misunderstandings of how and why they are different than solid state.
Click to expand...

Coming from a guitar background, I've certainly heard lots and lots of debates about tubes vs. solid state in the guitar world so it's true that a lot of tube information gets thrown around with varying degrees of accuracy.

Now, I've heard comparisons where someone has taken a tube preamp and swapped the tube around and given examples using various 12AX7 tubes and it has made a noticeable difference in the sound. Again, this is in spoken word / voice over stuff. If the tubes aren't really EQing things, if they're just adding distortion to the signal, is the sound difference just due to a different distortion character? With one tube type / brand distorting slightly different frequencies than another?
 
You're making the assumption that tubes just = distortion, or that distortion is their main purpose.

That might be partially true for guitar amps, but only if/when the amps are used in that manner....when they are made to distort.
You can make a SS circuit distort....tubes just have a knack for doing it better, smoother and more pleasantly.

Tubes are there for power conversion. They take your lame input signal and boost it. They do that in tube mics, preamps, guitar amps...etc.
That's what tubes are really for, and not any different than what transistors do in SS amps.

The real deal comes in that actual power curves....to keep it basic....the manner in which a tube does power conversion VS a transistor, and the fact that when pushed, tubes will kinda compress that curve, and then start to fail in the power conversion task in a more benign, and what many consider, nice way, compared to SS.
There's a little more to it...but that's it in a nutshell.

Quality tube gear just generally does all that much better than cheap tube gear, so just 'cuz something has a tube in it, it doesn't always mean you're getting some "tube magic" (or whatever you want to call it)...and that's what Jay was getting it.
 
miroslav said:
You're making the assumption that tubes just = distortion, or that distortion is their main purpose.
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I wasn't really making that assumption, I was basing my question off this quote:

Farview said:
Not an EQ as much as a distortion effect
Click to expand...

I guess what I'm really trying to nail down here is in a less expensive tube preamp, what does the tube actually do? I've heard the demos where changing the tube makes a difference, so the tube seems to do something. And then as a follow-on to that, are the tubes in less expensive preamps doing anything that less expensive solid state preamps don't do, or is it just marketing hype?
 
Tube vs solid state; analog vs digital; Mac vs PC. Go to any guitar store. Look around. See all those guitars? Hundreds of them? Think there is just one that is best or right? Everyone's advice here is reasonable but it only matters when the sound is done and if you are happy (an your client is happy) I've recorded with both. I've spent money on a Manley Voxbox tube pre to get that "warmth" On one session I had a beautiful black woman singing blues. Tube? Actually, she liked the solid state better. On another, a rocker with a voice like Bruce Springsteen. Solid state? Nope. So it depends. I would concentrate on using the equipment at its maximum efficiency and listening to the result. If you have both, for a while, put up two identical mics (if you have them) But remember; if it sounds good, that's all that matters. Someone said for voiceovers it's not such an issue. Maybe so, but in comes that great singer...
Rod Norman
Engineer

FartSword said:
Everything I'm discussing here, I'm discussing in the context of voice overs / spoken word, as that's my main use.

I know there's some debate about microphone pre-amps when it comes to tube and solid state pre-amps. Some say the tubes warm up the signal, others say the tubes don't really do anything.

On YouTube I've seen some demonstrations where someone first plugged into their regular pre-amp then turned on and plugged into their tube pre-amp right away and other than a volume difference, the tube pre-amp sounded pretty much the same.

But then I've seen other videos where the people say you need to let the tube pre-amp warm up for about 30 minutes first to get its full benefit. And when they used the tube pre-amp after letting it warm up a while first, it sounded really good.

So, what's the current prevailing wisdom? Are tube pre-amps nothing more than snake oil? Do they make a difference? Or do they only make a difference after they've been warmed up for a while first?
Click to expand...
 
FartSword said:
My question isn't even the same as the thread you linked. It looks like that person was asking about inexpensive preamps in general. I'm asking specifically about how tubes effect the signal in a preamp as compared to solid state preamps.
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But that is a different argument. The tubes add distortion and compression in a different way than Solid state does, but a mic preamp normally isn't chosen for it's distortion properties.



FartSword said:
Coming from a guitar background, I've certainly heard lots and lots of debates about tubes vs. solid state in the guitar world so it's true that a lot of tube information gets thrown around with varying degrees of accuracy.

Now, I've heard comparisons where someone has taken a tube preamp and swapped the tube around and given examples using various 12AX7 tubes and it has made a noticeable difference in the sound. Again, this is in spoken word / voice over stuff. If the tubes aren't really EQing things, if they're just adding distortion to the signal, is the sound difference just due to a different distortion character? With one tube type / brand distorting slightly different frequencies than another?
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Among other things. There are way too many variables to make any assumptions beyond "this tube in this model amp sounds like this". Worn out tubes sound darker than brand new ones, two of the same make and model tubes don't necessarily sound the same, etc...

What sort of tube preamp was it? Was it a real tube preamp, or a starved plate design? There are many different designs, all of them will react differently to a change of tubes.
 
FartSword said:
I guess what I'm really trying to nail down here is in a less expensive tube preamp, what does the tube actually do? I've heard the demos where changing the tube makes a difference, so the tube seems to do something. And then as a follow-on to that, are the tubes in less expensive preamps doing anything that less expensive solid state preamps don't do, or is it just marketing hype?
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There are a few different starved plate designs. One is a simple solid state preamp with a starved plate tube between the preamp and the output. It is only there to add some saturation, since it isn't given enough power to actually work properly. Another design is the same basic thing, only the tube is in a parallel circuit with the solid state preamp. This is awesome, since you can take the tube out and the preamp still works. Then, I believe there are a couple that actually try to use a starved plate tube to amplify the signal, but they have very little headroom and tend to sound harsh and crappy.

Quality preamp are quality preamps, no matter which topology is being used. Since it is easier and cheaper to implement a good solid state design, solid state preamps tend to be better at the lower price points. Once you get beyond a certain threshold, it isn't a quality difference, it's a preference.

BTW, name the top 3 'holy grail' mic preamps, I'll bet they are all solid state. (Neve, API, etc...)
 
FartSword said:
....in a less expensive tube preamp, what does the tube actually do?
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They make a nice glow. :)

Just kidding around...but like Jay said, they don't doo a heck of a lot.


Farview said:
BTW, name the top 3 'holy grail' mic preamps, I'll bet they are all solid state. (Neve, API, etc...)
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Yeah, that's true....but only for people who look for that kind of "holy grail" hype, since those names have been kicked around for so long. Not saying Neve and API aren't hot items, but I think if you take a slice of the pro studios racks....you will see a lot of great tube pres that maybe not as hyped, but are used possibly more or as much than the "holy grail" stuff....Tube Tech, Manley, D.W. Fearn, etc.

Some guy sold a pair of D.W. Fearn pres (forget the model) about a week ago on eBay....and someone scored the pair for just a little over $3k....which is a nice chunk of change, but when they usually sell each for more than that, it was a nice deal. the seller put them up as a straight auction, no reserve, no high starting price....which was ballsy, but with something like that, he knew there would be enough serious buyers willing to drop a few thousand on preamps.
Those are the kind of tube preamps that will make you go "Oh, now I see what the fuss is all about". :D
 
Farview said:
Since it is easier and cheaper to implement a good solid state design, solid state preamps tend to be better at the lower price points.
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That sounds logical. Something interesting I found was that the PreSonus Tubepre V2 uses the PreSonus XMAX solid state preamps which are the preamps they use on a number of their solid state interfaces, plus a tube. So it would seem it has both features... a quality solid state preamp and a tube at a budget-friendly price point.
 
FartSword said:
That sounds logical. Something interesting I found was that the PreSonus Tubepre V2 uses the PreSonus XMAX solid state preamps which are the preamps they use on a number of their solid state interfaces, plus a tube. So it would seem it has both features... a quality solid state preamp and a tube at a budget-friendly price point.
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Right. So it's just their budget solid state mic preamp with a tube shoe-horned into it for marketing purposes. It's not the best of both worlds, it's the same low end preamp with a starved tube in it so they can sell it to people who don't know any better.

It clearly isn't a tube preamp, otherwise it wouldn't need the solid state part. In other words, a tube preamp would use the tube to amplify the sound, it wouldn't need or have a solid state amplifier in it.
 
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