Microphone issue: surrounding noise

YanKleber

YanKleber

Retired
Microphone issue: surrounding noise [SOLVED]

Hi all!

After almost 30 years of delay I am finally trying to make this dream about to record an album to come true.

:)

Thanks to all the awesome DAW software I am doing good with the instruments part. However, when the thing comes to the voice recording I am really being knocked out. The main issue is that whenever I record my voice, it is getting an unwished environment noise, like a buzz mixed with an hiss.

:(

My gear is a C-3 mic and a Mic100 tube preamp, both from Behringer. They go plugged directly into my PC (onboard card) and the place where I do stuff is a regular room without any acoustic treatment. I believe that 99% of the problem is on my own inability of set up the equipment. The microphone has a DIY pop-killer. The preamp has two controls (gain and output) and the only thing I know is that cranking up one or another control will make the recording level to get up. Dohhh! I know that a wrong balance between those two controls will only probably add more noise to the equation though...

I have found a few tutorials teaching how to build a portable vocal booth (and that supposely would help to reduce the environment surrounding noise) but I am not feeling too much excited on add an extra stuff before to be sure that I am doing OK with what already I have.

Two other information that may be important:

1) I am not a singer so I have a bit of fear of the microphone and usually stay farest away from it than I probably should (around 10 inches between my mouth to the mic)
2) My place is very quiet (I live in country side) and the only audible sound in the environment is the usual hum from computer motors

Can someone give me tips to put me in the right track?

Thanks thanks THANKS a lot!!!

:thumbs up:
 
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This result is very common.

The first thing you should try is setting up the mic in cardioid pattern with the back of the mic facing your computer, or facing the general vicenity of your computer. That should place the computer in the null of the cardioid pattern and help minimize the pickup of those sounds. This can vary according to room dimensions and a bunch of other factors that have to do with acoustics, but it's a starting point. Moving the mic position in the room relative to where the PC is sitting can make a difference.

The next thing is to play around a bit with the gain and output settings on the preamp so you get a decent signal that isn't too noisey. Try setting the gain so your vocal is hitting just about 0dBv on the preamp. With the output adjusted properly that should peak at about -18dBFS in your DAW software.

You should be peaking your vocal at about -18dBFS in the DAW.

You can probably get closer to the mic but watch out for proximity effect.

For vocals you should also be using the low-cut filter engaged.
 
Wow, C7sus, I am really excited to try such settings tonight!

:listeningmusic:

PS: I would try it right now if I didn't have to set all the cables and stuff (yeah, this is the down side of use a 'general room' as poor man studio)

On another subject (but mentioned in my OP)... after to try the mentioned sets would it really make a big difference to build a simple vocal booth such as a box stuffed with foam? Also I have a lot of plain foam here and I was thinking if it could be used instead to buy convoluted foam?

:confused:
 
Arcaxis, yeah, I confess that I am not happy on know such news about my mic. When I bought it, it looked to be a good choice from the point of view of a total microphone ignorant (me).

:rolleyes:

At this point, I am going to try some ideas to minimize the issue, mainly because I am not willing to spend extra cash right now to buy a new mic. Also, although it does not have all the desired specs I don't believe that it is a totally crap so I am hoping that I can achieve some improvements by playing with the setup. Of course I am not expecting a super-duper-hyper quality from a cheap equipment, but the results I am getting so far are really awful and only compared to that sh*t gamer headsets mics hung at the earphone wire.

Let me make some tests, and I surely will post my results here.

:thumbs up:
 
Other than getting a proper interface, getting closer to the mic and possibly singing louder will help too. The self noise of everything is constant. The louder you sing closer to the mic will make the singing that much louder than the noise, which can make the noise a non-issue.
 
arcaxis said:
Just noticed plugging into the PC directly. This may not being helping (possibly a source of the "buzz") and is generally recommended around here to use an Audio Interface (AI) such as a Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 | Sweetwater.com . A decent AI can be found cheaper or used, but perhaps a good idea to ask on the forum for a opinions on a particular one beforehand.
Click to expand...

Arcaxis, while I am a complete idiot regarding to recording stuff, I have some background with PC hardware and stuff (software engineer and worked several years as a computer technician). I don't want to insult anyone in this forum (specially being in the newby section as I am) but from my point of view of hardware guy audio interfaces are a kind of 'hocus-pocus' thing to make people spend more than they really need. Well, sort of. I agree that they made total sense several years ago when computers didn't come equiped with standard decent audio devices and when the CPUs were very weak. But now, when practically ANY computer can process audio with professional quality I don't see the point.

Let's examine what comes in the package of an 'audio interface':

1) Couple of input jacks in a more suitable size (XLR and P10) instead that small standard P1 jack
2) Phantom power for mics that needs this through the XLR jack
3) Bult-in preamp to boost mic signal
4) USB connection to the computer
5) Bundled software

If I didn't already have an external preamp (the Mic100) that covers the items 1 to 3 maybe it would make sense to get an audio interface since it is, in most aspects, just this: a mic preamp that plugs to computer through the USB instead the mic jack in the sound card.

OK, the only justificative I can accept as good enough to use an audio interface is if someone could prove me that:

a) The AD conversion that happens inside it is significantly superior to the conversion of a regular sound card
b) The computer sound card inject noise in the signal and the audio interface does not

For so much time there was an assumption that all the electronics found in home computers used to generate an electromagnetic field that would be inducted into the audio cards and be translated as noise when trying to record from analog sources. I remember (and it was not uncommon) to see computers to scramble radios and TVs signals. But it was kind of 10-15 years ago. I think that the electronics has suffered some improvements since then.

Anyway, even if the modern computers are still a source of electronic noise and the audio stuff is still subject of such interference, to use an external audio interface placed around the computer won't solve the issue because it still would pick all this noise (unless that you put it 15 or 20 meters away).

In all cases, I am not telling that audio interfaces are completely useless. As mentioned before, they may be a good option for whose don't have already a mic preamp. Also, they may be specially useful for whose uses laptops instead desktops because the obvious processment weakness of portable machines. While a desktop PC may process audio without barely notice a laptop can suffer a severe CPU overload doing it, so an external dedicated audio interface can release the computer CPU.

I don't think that in my case, though, the lack of an audio interface may be the cause of the noise. Other than that I am too much more easier to convince that the culprit is my cheap mic and my low level of audio recording knowledge.

:rolleyes:

Nonetheless I am opened to change my mind if someone could tell me that had noise when using the sound card and managed to eliminate it after to plug an audio interface onto the computer.

:)
 
AIs do have some other benefits:
- multiple inputs and outputs, using connectors that are standard for pro audio equipment. Less adapters = higher fidelity signal
- multiple routing options for inputs and outputs
- ability to direct monitor, allowing zero-latency monitoring of input signals
- balanced inputs/outputs, allowing for noise-free lengthy cable runs
- most come with good-quality (or better) built-in preamps, superior in clarity and self-noise to those in consumer/integrated audio chipsets
- stable, high-performance ASIO drivers for lower input and output latency, allows for easier software monitoring
- superior quality (and performance) analog-digital and digital-analog conversion

If you're going to be recording analog signals from microphones/instruments, a dedicated audio interface is just a tool of the trade. Especially now, when there are many many high-quality units on the market at incredibly affordable prices. USB 2.0 support has matured and provides stable, high-performance connectivity, drivers have become more stable, prices have come down, and quality continues to improve. It's a terrific time for audio interfaces.
 
Tadpui, so are you afirming that I will be really better by disposing my mic preamp and getting an AI? In your belief it will solve all my noise issues?
 
Even if the electrical performance were exactly the same having direct monitoring makes an AI the preferable choice. But in your case you've got a cheap tube preamp, probably a starved plate design, so a decent solid state preamp in a decent AI is almost certain to be superior. Tubes and cheap are a bad combination.
 
The other thing an AI gives you is inputs that work at standard levels.

For example, the mic input on the built in sound is expecting the mic from a set of gaming headphones or something you would use for skype. The type of mic you use for recording is made to a different standard and will not be matched to that input.

The line input on the built in sound might be running at consumer -10 levels, or not. But your mic preamp is putting out a +4 signal. So you will easily overload the input.

It isn't balanced, so it will pick up noise easily.

Most noise issues are caused by three things
1. Bad gain staging.
2. Ground loops
3. Broken gear

The problem you have with hiss is a gain staging issue. The input on the computer is too sensitive, because it doesn't work at pro line level, so the self noise of the preamp is raised. You are too far from the mic and probably singing quietly, so you have to turn up the preamp higher than you should need to, which makes the mic self noise and all the background noise of the room louder.

The hum problem is probably a ground loop that is happening because the mic preamp is probably grounded better than the computer (it could also be the other way around), so one thing is finding an easier path to ground through the audio cable and the other piece of equipment.

A proper audio interface takes care of all these problems.

There really wasn't any real processing goi g on in interfaces, so computer power never entered into it. The computers power will never be able to compensate for what the interface actually does.
 
YanKleber said:
Tadpui, so are you afirming that I will be really better by disposing my mic preamp and getting an AI? In your belief it will solve all my noise issues?
Click to expand...

Well, I wouldn't say that it'll take care of all of your noise issues. That Behringer preamp is probably the source of some of your noise, especially if you're having to turn the gain up very far. They're notoriously noisy. So a mid-quality solid-state preamp (like those built in to most AIs) would be less susceptible to this.


There could very well be other factors that are contributing to your noise.
 
Hummm... very good points. As I mentioned, I am an open minded guy so new stuff is always welcome. You guys are really giving me tech stuff to consider that an AI is not just the hocus-pocus I thought of.

One thing that just occurred me while I am writing these lines is that my sound card does NOT have a line input jack, so I am using the mic jack that probably is already (bad) preamped by the card itself. Not sure. But if it is, it certainly is getting a signal doubled preamped, what will not only saturate the signal but also super-amplificate the noise.

Also I just remembered that I have a SM57 clone here somewhere that I bought to record electric guitars (before I get aware of the impulse technology and amp/cabinet emulators) and never used. I will find it and test voice recording using it plugged directly to the sound card without the Mic100 preamp (then I can avoid a possible saturation) to see what happens. Unfortunately I cannot make such test with the Behringer C-3 because it depends on the phantom power provided by the external preamp to work.

Finally I will try to get closer to the mic and sing louder. This is the problem with non-singers... I have this shame about others hearing my out-of-tune voice so I try to sing as quietly as possible. LoL.

Anyway, I think that you have given to me VERY good clues and now I have to spend some time playing with the variables. Depending on what I get I will swallow my own words and consider to get an AI. Or maybe I can obtain enough improvements to get me on an acceptable quality level. Let's see. As I may have mentioned before I am not a pro and there is not any intention on sell my work and such. I am doing it as a hobby so I don't expect a super-duper quality, but something a bit better than the horrible (that's what I am getting now).

All in all, at least for the instruments I already am getting something 1000% better than when I tried my first sessions 30 years ago using a 4-channel Tascam 'porta-one' recorder and a $10 Sony mic.

:D

Thanks a bunch for all! I will get back very soon with news!

:thumbs up:
 
Using a mic input is one of your biggest problems. A 57 clone, if it is like a real 57 will need a good amount of amplification, probably more than the soundcard has, in order to get good levels. This is another reason why an interface is a good idea, not all mics put out the same amount of signal, you need the adjustment in order to get proper levels.
 
YanKleber said:
One thing that just occurred me while I am writing these lines is that my sound card does NOT have a line input jack, so I am using the mic jack that probably is already (bad) preamped by the card itself. Not sure. But if it is, it certainly is getting a signal doubled preamped, what will not only saturate the signal but also super-amplificate the noise.
Click to expand...

Now THAT is definitely a recipe for excessive noise. Preamping a signal more than once will definitely amplify the noise. Given that fact, I would almost bet that this is the main source of the noise that you're experiencing. I've done that before, and wondered why I was getting such a noisy signal (preamping through an ART Tube MP and the preamp on a channel of my little Yamaha mixer...it was noise city).
 
I am a complete idiot. I just double checked my rear PC jacks and there are three jacks there: a RED, a GREEN and a BLUE one.

OK, the RED is for mic input (the one I was wrongly using and probably overloading the sound card) and the GREEN is the line out one that are connected to my Edifier monitor speakers. Now why I am an idiot: I just "guessed" that the BLUE jack was for some kind of 5.1 surround sound or so, but turns out that this BLUE one is exactly the LINE IN jack that is reported by Windows as being 'Line In High Definition Audio Device' and current status as 'not plugged'.

:cursing:

I will make make my tests tonight (that will be in one hour or so). It changes abolutelly everything. Anyway, beside the distance from the mike and the correct cranking of the preamp controls, I will see what happens with the SM57 clone in the RED jack and with the C-3 in the BLUE jack.

:spank: <-- This is me performing self-flagellation as punishment for being such stupid.
 
that's great! Good luck!

I'd just always plug the Behri preamp output into the line-in jack, regardless of whether you're using the C3 or the SM57 clone. The only difference would be that the C3 would require phantom power to be engaged and the SM57 wouldn't. Well, I guess that the 57 clone will need more preamp gain, like Farview mentioned above.
 
Woha! I really would like that ALL issues were SO easy to solve as this.

:eek:

OK, it didn't took me more than one hour to turn on the preamp, plug in the cables, crank the controls to the proper position, record something and... be punched against my chair with the superb quality I got while a thin drool of satisfaction hung out from my dropped jaw. Yeah, this is absolutely how I am feeling.

:D

I got an excellent track with virtually NO ONE noise (just a very very far hiss in absolute silence parts) and an awesome level without any clipping. And I should let you know that not being a singer, for the first time in my life I liked my voice recorded. I am not saying that it IS a wonderful thing, but you can measure my level of success and satisfaction by my words. I really doubt that I can go better than this unless I go to a professional studio. Other than that now is just a matter of a couple FX and a pitch correction here and there.

:)

The setup:

1) Microphone plugged into Behringer Mic100 preamp XLR input and the output P10 plugged directly into sound card BLUE input jack at the rear of the PC
2) Preamp with both gain and output controls cranked to 50% (pointing to top) and limiter on (just in case). It was done by mate c7sus instructions: gain control to peak at 0dB in preamp and output control to peak at -18dB in DAW (in my case, Reaper).
3) Sung normally at about 3-4 inches from mic, not screaming and not quietly -- just putting my emotion out normally without worry about others hearing me ;)

The veredict:

I think that you will think it interesting. I made the same track either with the Behringer C-3 as well with the SM57 clone (GPA GM570) and the result really surprised me specially regarding to this last one that costed me less than $40 while th
 
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If you start having problems with latency, you will have to get an interface to solve that. But if you don't, you seem to be all set. Good luck.
 
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