grimtraveller
If only for a moment.....
Which do you think you are stronger with ? In what ways do you overcome weakness in either area ?
Music or lyrics ?
- Thread starter grimtraveller
- Start date
DM60
Well-known member
Musically, I know my songs have a lot to be desired, so I hope my lyrics make up for it. But if they don't, then the last chance is that, presentation of all said ingredients at least provide collectively something of value to the listener.
Now, most would say, what the hell does value in a song mean. Here is my take on that, first, I am asking a person to take time (time has value to everyone, we only get so much of it) to listen to my song/music. Therefore, to me, I owe the listener something (subjective) for the privilege of them giving me their time. Even if I am not the best at playing, or my lyrics may not be that "genius" moment, I just hope they don't finish the song and say something like, "That's 3:XX minutes I'll never get back". Even if they say, "Hum, interesting, not may thing." I good with that, just not the, dreaded phrase, "That's 3:XX ..."
Now, most would say, what the hell does value in a song mean. Here is my take on that, first, I am asking a person to take time (time has value to everyone, we only get so much of it) to listen to my song/music. Therefore, to me, I owe the listener something (subjective) for the privilege of them giving me their time. Even if I am not the best at playing, or my lyrics may not be that "genius" moment, I just hope they don't finish the song and say something like, "That's 3:XX minutes I'll never get back". Even if they say, "Hum, interesting, not may thing." I good with that, just not the, dreaded phrase, "That's 3:XX ..."
I beleive I'm stronger as a lyricist, but I do try to make sure that I write good melodies and a melodic hook. I think my biggest weakness is with chord structure. I tend to depend on the I, IV, V too much. I try to make sure I use ii or iv, etc. but too many of my songs are limited to maybe 5-6 chords.
I've tried to study theory to understand how and why to use other chords, modulations, etc (and I have written some songs with more complex structure - but too often, my writing keeps falling back to those trusted basics.
I've tried to study theory to understand how and why to use other chords, modulations, etc (and I have written some songs with more complex structure - but too often, my writing keeps falling back to those trusted basics.
DM60
Well-known member
Best song are the simple ones. I try not to think too much about that part of it, but even if it is basic, then the arrangement plays heavy into it.
I agree that simple can often be very effective - I also agree that a simple chord structure does normally demand a need for a clever arrangement. While I don't dwell on chord structure to a point where I compromise the impact of the song - when I look at my body of work, I am sometimes less than thrilled that after years of playing and trying to improve as a musician, my chord structures often don't reflect the time and effort.
DM60
Well-known member
Well, there are only so many notes we have to work with. Did you see Mozart the movie? Mozart had just finished a piece and asked the king what he thought, the king replied (paraphrasing) , "too many notes". So, you might be on the right track
grimtraveller
If only for a moment.....
I certainly get a lot more joy from coming up with the music. I like fitting all the bits together. But over the last few years, I've been able to reel off a lyric most of the time, just like that.
I think my music is better than my lyrics, but then, it depends on the lyric. Sometimes, the lyrics have just been "words that fit the melody" as opposed to anything particularly meaningful. Other times, the meaningfulness is only really pertinent to me. But in those cases, I've been intrigued when people have told me what they got from them.
I think my music is better than my lyrics, but then, it depends on the lyric. Sometimes, the lyrics have just been "words that fit the melody" as opposed to anything particularly meaningful. Other times, the meaningfulness is only really pertinent to me. But in those cases, I've been intrigued when people have told me what they got from them.
grimtraveller
If only for a moment.....
While I have no science or statistics to back me up, I think on balance, that is true for far more songs than those for which it is not true. I do really like lyrics, but only in the context of an overall song that I already like as a whole.
And that's why I can get away, at least in my own head, with some of the meandering or obscure lyrics to my own songs that would probably have barryc and his ilk foaming at the mouth.
dainbramage
New member
That depends on the genre IMO. What made Townes Van Zandt a genius was his lyrics. What made Django Reinhardt a genius was his melodies.
grimtraveller
If only for a moment.....
Hypothetically, if someone that didn't speak Townes' language happened to listen to stuff he played on, it wouldn't be the lyrics that would grab them. Whereas the vice wouldn't be versa if someone chanced upon Django's stuff unless they only liked lyrics. Lyrical genius is lost on someone that can't understand or isn't really 'into' lyrics. But good playing or tasty melodies in a song is good playing or tasty melodies in a song, anyway you look at it.
BroKen_H
Re-member
Dainbramage has that right.
Lyrics are important to some genres. There are lots of boys as cute as or cuter than Justin Bieber, but I'm told (I've never heard any of his music) that it's his words telling the preteen girls what they need to hear, not the melodies to the songs that make him popular. There are lots of examples of this in pop music. Not that all pop lyrics are bubblegum, but it's close
With some things, it's not talent or melody, although those things will help. It's the look and the hook.
Then there are balanced genres (like the prog I prefer) that have interesting lyrics thrown over diverse, amazing riffs and progressions.
A lot of gospel just repeats the same 5-10 words over and over. Can't be about the lyrics.
Lyrics are important to some genres. There are lots of boys as cute as or cuter than Justin Bieber, but I'm told (I've never heard any of his music) that it's his words telling the preteen girls what they need to hear, not the melodies to the songs that make him popular. There are lots of examples of this in pop music. Not that all pop lyrics are bubblegum, but it's close
With some things, it's not talent or melody, although those things will help. It's the look and the hook.
Then there are balanced genres (like the prog I prefer) that have interesting lyrics thrown over diverse, amazing riffs and progressions.
A lot of gospel just repeats the same 5-10 words over and over. Can't be about the lyrics.
PTravel
Senior Senior Member
I'm definitely stronger with music. I can write lyrics -- sometimes they're even good, but overall it's much easier for me to write music. I overcome my weakness in lyric writing by having a writing partner whose strength is writing lyrics.
R
RAMI
Guest
Although I know I write great lyrics, music definitely comes easier to me. I often have a song finished except for the lyrics, and then I'll have a mental block trying to get that one last line in.
The problem is that I wrote great lyrics over the years and now I feel like I'm just repeating myself sometimes. But I look at it this way. I've written and recorded the equivalent of something like 9 or 10 albums. For most bands, that's a career's worth if not more. So, look at bands like Aerosmith, The Stones, or any other band that's been around for years. They have absolutely nothing new to say and their best lyrics are far behind them, as well as their best music. At least I have the advantage of being able to take the lyrics of one of my older tunes and adapt them to new, better music. It's not as if millions of people heard my older stuff, so it's almost a waste for me to NOT re-use some of my better lyrics. At most, 6 or 7 people MIGHT notice.
The problem is that I wrote great lyrics over the years and now I feel like I'm just repeating myself sometimes. But I look at it this way. I've written and recorded the equivalent of something like 9 or 10 albums. For most bands, that's a career's worth if not more. So, look at bands like Aerosmith, The Stones, or any other band that's been around for years. They have absolutely nothing new to say and their best lyrics are far behind them, as well as their best music. At least I have the advantage of being able to take the lyrics of one of my older tunes and adapt them to new, better music. It's not as if millions of people heard my older stuff, so it's almost a waste for me to NOT re-use some of my better lyrics. At most, 6 or 7 people MIGHT notice.
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delirium trigge
New member
Well, music, BUT, the lyrics are communication. They simply aren't the way you feel. Anyone can bob their head to a tune... But what did you say in those lyrics that communicates. As a poet that makes someone feel AND REMEMBER what you said. If you're a local band and you just write random how you feel, you're too insecure to tell anyone why, there is no communication, it's difficult.
This is why the band TOOL is so successful. You can idolize them or think they know something you don't, but that's not true. Essentially, all they figured out was how to play good music but to connect with you in a certain way. It's about communication when it comes to lyrics. That's why it doesn't matter if Jimi Hendrix can't sing, he's communicating something, and then the beauty because in the way he sings. It's a play on human emotions.
Keep in mind when writing a song, it is like a chess match. That's why you feel like the song is awesome one day and the next you don't. The song may still be awesome but it doesn't communicate with you, on the next day where you don't feel that way anymore. But there are other people who do feel that way. Capitalize on that.
I am involved in ideas for lyrics but I am a musician. There are other people who are not musicians, or maybe be a little of both and I do what I do, and they do what they do, which means they are good at communication and that's why it sticks.
We have the freedom as artist to write something that only we feel. But chances are we aren't the only one's who feel that way. And you won't always feel that way either. So you capture it in a bottle. And that's the lyrics and then you perform these lyrics to people who do feel that way, even if you don't. Anymore at least.
And that is the war of art.
We've all met the musician who only plays music he feels at that very time he feels it. That is fine as an artist. But if you want to take it to the next level, communicate with people who feel the same way.
But I am speaking about something I've put a great deal of thought about and playing music all of my life. I do not write lyrics. Because as a musician it's too hard for me to put something in a box. So writing lyrics for me personally, I don't know where the box is. My mind can't see the box. So, I could lead you down a rabbit trail, which will be okay, kinda like TOOL, but if you aren't willing to follow the band TOOL down the rabbit trail you totally won't get what they are communicating.
This is why the band TOOL is so successful. You can idolize them or think they know something you don't, but that's not true. Essentially, all they figured out was how to play good music but to connect with you in a certain way. It's about communication when it comes to lyrics. That's why it doesn't matter if Jimi Hendrix can't sing, he's communicating something, and then the beauty because in the way he sings. It's a play on human emotions.
Keep in mind when writing a song, it is like a chess match. That's why you feel like the song is awesome one day and the next you don't. The song may still be awesome but it doesn't communicate with you, on the next day where you don't feel that way anymore. But there are other people who do feel that way. Capitalize on that.
I am involved in ideas for lyrics but I am a musician. There are other people who are not musicians, or maybe be a little of both and I do what I do, and they do what they do, which means they are good at communication and that's why it sticks.
We have the freedom as artist to write something that only we feel. But chances are we aren't the only one's who feel that way. And you won't always feel that way either. So you capture it in a bottle. And that's the lyrics and then you perform these lyrics to people who do feel that way, even if you don't. Anymore at least.
And that is the war of art.
We've all met the musician who only plays music he feels at that very time he feels it. That is fine as an artist. But if you want to take it to the next level, communicate with people who feel the same way.
But I am speaking about something I've put a great deal of thought about and playing music all of my life. I do not write lyrics. Because as a musician it's too hard for me to put something in a box. So writing lyrics for me personally, I don't know where the box is. My mind can't see the box. So, I could lead you down a rabbit trail, which will be okay, kinda like TOOL, but if you aren't willing to follow the band TOOL down the rabbit trail you totally won't get what they are communicating.
delirium trigge
New member
Well why you are repeating the same thing, you figure out new things more than you realize. It becomes refined. Don't get writers block because something new doesn't come about. There is a process to something new coming out. Not just, "Bam it's here." Yes that happens, but not much.
R
RAMI
Guest
Good advice. Thanx.