Help: Using a microphone through a preamp and into a line-input!

B

biffbiffson

New member
I hope this is the right forum, this is my first post, but looking over all of the information I've gathered from other topics, you guys seem pretty knowledgeable.

So, just to clarify, I've been checking the internet for hours and I haven't really gotten a clear answer to my question:

So I'm using an Alesis MultiMix 8, which has 4 XLR inputs going through the preamp, and 4 line-inputs that don't go through the preamp because they're line-level. How can I use those line-levels to record microphones for when I need to record drums? I really need to know before I purchase a tube preamp, and my idea is just that the microphone goes to XLR cable to the preamp, then out of the preamp use a TRS cable into the balanced line-input, and that would be it.

Is this correct, or am I doing something wrong?

Thanks for all the help.

EDIT: and if running a preamp'd mike through a line-input is not the correct way to do it, how would I run a preamp'd mike through an XLR input on my MultiMix without going through the mixer's built-in preamp (I don't think this is possible?)?? Is there some kind of XLR input that doesn't have an internal preamp?
 
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biffbiffson said:
I hope this is the right forum, this is my first post, but looking over all of the information I've gathered from other topics, you guys seem pretty knowledgeable.

So, just to clarify, I've been checking the internet for hours and I haven't really gotten a clear answer to my question:

So I'm using an Alesis MultiMix 8, which has 4 XLR inputs going through the preamp, and 4 line-inputs that don't go through the preamp because they're line-level. How can I use those line-levels to record microphones for when I need to record drums? I really need to know before I purchase a tube preamp, and my idea is just that the microphone goes to XLR cable to the preamp, then out of the preamp use a TRS cable into the balanced line-input, and that would be it.

Is this correct, or am I doing something wrong?

Thanks for all the help.

EDIT: and if running a preamp'd mike through a line-input is not the correct way to do it, how would I run a preamp'd mike through an XLR input on my MultiMix without going through the mixer's built-in preamp (I don't think this is possible?)?? Is there some kind of XLR input that doesn't have an internal preamp?
Click to expand...

That is correct. However, to the best of my knowledge, line-level inputs still go through the preamp. They just don't need as much of it.

You see, a preamp can be thought of as a device that simply boosts the volume of a weak signal. (And you should only turn up the gain as much as necessary to provide a healthy signal strength to the rest of the system.) Microphones usually provide a very weak signal, unless they are fed by an extremely loud source. That is why they need boosting. Line-level inputs expect the signal to already be much stronger, hence it does not need as much boosting.

So, the only difference between mic-in and line-in (besides impedance,) is the signal strength. You can indeed run the output of a preamp directly into the line-input.

Hope this helps. (Oh, and welcome.)
 
Thank you very much! I assumed the line-in's didn't have a preamp just because of there not being a gain pot (only a channel pot - unlike the channels that have an XLR input, which have a gain pot & channel pot), but I guess there could still be an internal preamp and there not be a gain nob (I'm fairly new to quality recording, so I wouldn't really know).

And to verify, there wouldn't be any sort of quality or signal loss if I'm going from XLR to preamp to TRS to line-in since XLR and TRS are the same balance, correct?
 
biffbiffson said:
Thank you very much! I assumed the line-in's didn't have a preamp just because of there not being a gain pot (only a channel pot - unlike the channels that have an XLR input, which have a gain pot & channel pot), but I guess there could still be an internal preamp and there not be a gain nob (I'm fairly new to quality recording, so I wouldn't really know).

And to verify, there wouldn't be any sort of quality or signal loss if I'm going from XLR to preamp to TRS to line-in since XLR and TRS are the same balance, correct?
Click to expand...

Correct again. In fact, depending on how good of a preamp you buy, that signal path may turn out to be higher quality than the built-in preamps. Low budget mixers tend to have very cheap (and crappy) components even in the mic preamps in order to keep the cost down. If your preamp costs even half as much as the mixer did, it will most likely be a step up.
 
biffbiffson said:
Thank you very much! I assumed the line-in's didn't have a preamp just because of there not being a gain pot (only a channel pot - unlike the channels that have an XLR input, which have a gain pot & channel pot), but I guess there could still be an internal preamp and there not be a gain nob (I'm fairly new to quality recording, so I wouldn't really know).

And to verify, there wouldn't be any sort of quality or signal loss if I'm going from XLR to preamp to TRS to line-in since XLR and TRS are the same balance, correct?
Click to expand...

Now that I think about it, you may be correct on the line-in not having a preamp. I believe line-level means that the signal strength is already up to a usable level. Sorry, for my brain fart.
 
Well, seeing as I recently spent between $250-$300 on the MultiMix 8 (Not including the new mikes I added to my setup), and my wife was questioning that financial decision, I'm trying to get into the ART MP Tube preamp, which is a very cheap one, but I have heard great things. Do you think this will be a step up, or just about the same, maybe with a tube-effect?

Another serious question I had: I also have a Tascam US-122, the older version, and was wondering if I should run the main outs of the MultiMix (mono or stereo), into the L and R of the Tascam.

Both would be 24-bit, but I would have to use the MultiMix in 44.1k or 48k instead of its max of 96k to match the Tascam's sample rate.

Do you have any opinions on this? Would the downgrading of sample rate be made up for by the interface's A/D conversion? I noticed a significant increase in gain when using the Tascam after the MultiMix (all pots on Tascam being completely down), so I don't know if that means anything. Any help here would be greatly appreciated, and thanks for all of your help so far!
 
we have an alesis mutlimix 16 at work which has 8 pre's and 8 line in's without preamps. the stereo line in's on it (and on the multi mix 8) don't have preamps but the line in's on the 4 channels with XLR's do go through the preamp stage (i assume so that people can use them as instrument in's) you can comfortably add an external preamp to the stereo line in's it with a TRS cable and we did exactly that not to long ago to record a whole band in a room at once. in you DAW, the stereo line in's show up as separate mono in's (i.e, stereo 5/6 on the desk shows up separately as input 5 and input 6 in your DAW) so you can plug 4 mono line in's to the stereo line in's on the multi mix. set the volume knob (fader on ours) to 0dB and just adjust the input on the external pre.

Depending on the external pre's you use, they should sound better than the built in pre's on the multi mix. i've tried it with the ART tube MP and it was slightly better than the built in pre's, but for £30 a box the ART mp's are very usable. i also used the TL audio 5001 (quad valve preamp) on it and it sounded ALOT better than the standard pre's
 
Wow, thanks very much, that contained all of the information I needed. I picked up an ART MP last night, but then went to a house show, so haven't been able to give it a try... I'm thinking that the TL audio Ivory 5001 is SLIGHTLY out of my current price range, hah!

The real pain in my situation is that I now need 3 more preamps for those mono lines to fully utilize my mixer, and at least one more if I want to record stereo dubs with special pre's.

That gets into should I get another Tube MP, or a different pre for recording stereo, since they'll all sound different, or when you record stereo is it orthodox to use the same 2 pre's, etc.

What an excellent welcoming to the board.
 
Why would you still use the US-122 at all? The Alesis is both an audio interface and a mixer. It's just going to complicate your life to use both, unless there is something fundamental I don't understand. 24bit/44.1 is more than enough resolution fine for rock, pop, whatever recording. Some people will argue sample rate to the death, but I'm not one of them :-)

biffbiffson said:
Well, seeing as I recently spent between $250-$300 on the MultiMix 8 (Not including the new mikes I added to my setup), and my wife was questioning that financial decision, I'm trying to get into the ART MP Tube preamp, which is a very cheap one, but I have heard great things. Do you think this will be a step up, or just about the same, maybe with a tube-effect?

Another serious question I had: I also have a Tascam US-122, the older version, and was wondering if I should run the main outs of the MultiMix (mono or stereo), into the L and R of the Tascam.

Both would be 24-bit, but I would have to use the MultiMix in 44.1k or 48k instead of its max of 96k to match the Tascam's sample rate.

Do you have any opinions on this? Would the downgrading of sample rate be made up for by the interface's A/D conversion? I noticed a significant increase in gain when using the Tascam after the MultiMix (all pots on Tascam being completely down), so I don't know if that means anything. Any help here would be greatly appreciated, and thanks for all of your help so far!
Click to expand...
 
biffbiffson said:
That gets into should I get another Tube MP, or a different pre for recording stereo, since they'll all sound different, or when you record stereo is it orthodox to use the same 2 pre's, etc.

What an excellent welcoming to the board.
Click to expand...

You're welcome dude, that's what we're all here for :)

it's usually common to use the same/very similar pre's and mic's to record in stereo so that it sounds similar and gives you a real stereo image. Saying that, i've tried 3 of the ART MP's (2 of the MP's and one of the first series MP studios that was basically the standard MP with a VU meter) and if there is a difference is sooooooooooo small that using two for stereo should be fine (i'd say that having two different mic's for stereo would make a much bigger difference than two of the same mic's through slightly different pre's). i used a pair for stereo drum overheads with a matched pair of sE1a's for a couple of sessions and they sounded fine.

yeah, the TLA 5001 is a touch pricey but it's worth keeping an eye on ebay as i've seen them go for about £250 second hand which, again, may be out of your budget but that works out at £60 a preamp and they're notably nicer than the MP's IMO and have a real valve character whereas the MP's is a hybrid preamp (it's pretty much a FET preamp with a low voltage valve stage). Saying that, i've heard that people have had a lot of success swapping the stock valves for nicer ones and apparently that makes a world of difference to the sound (and for about £15 for a new valve that's not too much. i'd say buy one and try it)
 
Ah, that's right the TLA 5001 IS 4 preamp's, that's makes the used purchase ease my heart a bit, especially for TRUE tubez, and the fact the it's 4 pre's means I can use JUST that preamp for all 4 of my line-in's! I assumed the MP was a hybrid for that low of a price, but I hope when I try it here in a minute that it was at least worth the getting lost on the highways of Nashville that I went through to pick it up... Hahaha

Could you clear up what "FET" is, exactly?

I didn't even realize that the only stereo mike pairs I have are dynamics, which I want to record my acoustic stereo/through a preamp, which means that I would also need to purchase a match for one of my large-diaphragm MXL condensers... Oh my thin, thin wallet gets thinner. :(
 
"FET" stands for Field Effect Transistor (thanks wikipedia) - in other terms, it uses a transistor to amplify the signal. in my defence, i did read it wrong and it's the limiter that's FET and i think the preamp circuit is a normal transistor. i'm not sure of the technical difference of different transistors as electronics is very much not my thing, but i know the difference between a valve and transistor (just....one's big and looks like a lightbulb, the other is a transistor.... :p)

tbf, i still have one of the ART MP's (the one with the VU as i spent a LONG time looking for it as i didn't want the V3 one with presets, i just wanted the MP with a decent meter!) and have lent the others to friends on a "semi-permanent" basis (i don't expect them back as i know they use them a lot!) I still use it every now and then as i like the sound of it and it fits in my pocket (almost) making it great as a portable pre to go along with my firestudio mobile.

although i've not personally tried them, the MXL 603's get great reviews for the price (about $140 a pair). saying that, why not try using the MXL LDC along with a pair of dynamics on the acoustic guitar? if you put the LDC about 2 foot back aiming at where the neck meets the body and use that as the main sound, you can blend it the stereo pair and maybe gently EQ some high end into it. it be a clean or as clear as a pair of SDC's but, mixed with an LDC i reckon it should be workable.

Saying that, do you need a stereo pair of mic's at the moment? i'm sure you can get a good acoustic sound with one LDC. if you can live without the for now, just save up :)
 
Well, I do have 2 SDC, but they aren't a matching pair, 2 LDC (also not matching), and the 2 dynamics... I suppose I can just use the not matching SDC's to replicate that sound (I'm going to need more XLR cables!). Also, using a pair of dynamics instead might give me that little bit of lo-fi that could fill my otherwise empty acoustic/vocal songs. The experimentation must commence.

Say, while reading the ART MP's user manual, it states that the 1/4" out and in's are unbalanced... I thought I saw a youtube video and/or read some documentation on it last night before I purchased it that said that at least the output was balanced, so I'm using a TRS cable to go from the MP's 1/4" unbalanced to my MultiMix's (what I think is balance, having read some where as well) line-in on the stereo channels (being used as mono)...

So, seeing as I don't want to damage anything on my setup (like anyone else, I would think!), is there a way I can correct this, or something I don't know about that lets this work fine as is?
 
this is copied and pasted straight from the ART MP user manual;

"The XLR output of theTUBE MP is active balanced You may use it in an unbalanced configuration without harm to the output circuitry."

http://artproaudio.com/files/owners_manuals/om_tubemp.pdf

tbh, i've never been that worried about going between balanced and unbalanced 1/4 inch jacks. my understanding is that the difference is just noise levels. if you're worried, the XLR output is balanced so the easiest way to fix the problem is to get/make a balanced XLR to jack cable :)
 
See, what I had seen was that part of the manual, and then just after it

"The XLR output of theTUBE MP is active balanced You may Òse it
in an unbalanced configuration without harm to the output cir-
cuitry. Use the unbalanced 1/4Ó jack for sending your signal to
amps, processors or other unbalanced configurations."

Which when I hear "noise" levels between TS and TRS, does that mean like an airy sound? As if when something isn't grounded, I'm assuming (like a guitar amp), cos that would mean I would want EVERYTHING balanced! haha
 
biffbiffson said:
Which when I hear "noise" levels between TS and TRS, does that mean like an airy sound? As if when something isn't grounded, I'm assuming (like a guitar amp), cos that would mean I would want EVERYTHING balanced! haha
Click to expand...

at it's worse it sounds like something that isn't grounded (that's actually quite a nice way of wording it), but the added noise is only really prominent if the cable is dodgy, it's surrounded by loads of other cables or plugs/power cables, or if it's a massive cable coiled up. The whole balanced cable thing is there to help prevent extra noise getting in to the signal through the cable (and in TRS it also provides stereo signals in one cable).

as i said, if you want to definitely go balanced out of the MP to the desk, use an XLR to TRS jack cable :)
 
Well, I had gotten the ART MP tube pre, and ran XLR in, TRS out into the MultiMix, and it didn't sound any different from the Multi's pre's, so I took the MP back. Gonna save up for a TLA 5001 or I've been looking at the ART MPA II (also interested in the compressor on this). Thanks for asking!
 
biffbiffson said:
Well, I had gotten the ART MP tube pre, and ran XLR in, TRS out into the MultiMix, and it didn't sound any different from the Multi's pre's, so I took the MP back
Click to expand...

That's a shame man :( as i said earlier the difference is sooo slight but it can be useful for just adding extra pre's.

i did a quick preamp shootout and posted it in this forum (it's in the "Recording Techniques" thread as "preamp shootout under £1000") and the TLA 5001 is the second sample if you want to have a listen/play before saving up. i will say that it's worth downloading the sample and playing with it in you DAW to really get an idea of how it sounds as we found that difference between the pre's i tried was very slight on their own but the difference was very noticeable when EQ'ing/compressing them.

i've not tried the ART MAPII but i was very VERY tempted when i was searching for pre's before (and somehow ended up with the FMR RNC which is just a compressor, go figure!) and it does get good reviews. i like the fact it's got variable impedance for the inputs so you can match the pre's with the mic, and the "plate voltage" apparently gives you different valve sounds, although the consensus seemed to be that the "high voltage" plate sound seemed to work best as it gave a more obvious valve colour
 
Thanks for the info, I checked your post. As far as using the MP to add extra pre's, I have 4 line-in's I need to fill, so the TLA 5001 would be perfect, but if the MPAII is good, I wouldn't mind having 2 :P

Thing is, I don't really NEED pre's right now, won't be recording drums for some time... need a kit first. :P

I would like a compressor though, as an insert to my channel strip. If you know of a decent, affordable compressor let me know.

And so you say that it's hard to tell between pre's unless you're EQing and/or compressing? And do you mean EQing and compressing through the channel strip, or does EQing and compressing during mixing result in a difference as well?

edit: On the guitar I could really hear the highs on the first guitar track, but the rest I can't tell the difference. Which one was the Audio Buddy? The first one, right?
 
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